230: Know Your Worth with Erica Anderson Rooney

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:02]:

Erica, you’re so welcome to the half year at work podcast. I’m delighted to have this conversation. And I know this has been in the diary for months at this stage, and I heard you speaking on someone else’s podcast, and I had to reach out because I was just so inspired by what you said. Do you want to introduce people to your work and how you got to where you are in your career?

Erica [00:00:25]:

Yeah. So today, I’m a professional speaker and an author of the book Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors, which is all about shattering the limiting beliefs and toxic behaviors that keep you stuck. It is very much so focused on women, but it applies to everyone. Because those limiting mindsets, the imposter syndrome, perfectionism, fear, burnout, we all experience them. And I got to this place kind of in a very roundabout way, but I started my career in health and fitness, recognize how much I loved helping people, but very quickly hit the ceiling in that career that I loved so much. And I was in my early or late twenties. I was in my late twenties, and I thought there’s no more growth for me. How am I how am I supposed to make it to retirement? And it

Aoife O’Brien [00:01:15]:

was a big deal. Say, gotta have 14 more years until retirement? What what’s going on?

Erica [00:01:21]:

But, Aoife, when I tell you, when I started this job, and this was my first big girl corporate job, I was like, I am so lucky I have found the job that I’m gonna retire from. Like, I remember having that thought. And then, of course, I I stayed with them for almost a decade. But, again, hit that ceiling, and I am so motivated by growth. I’m always trying to learn and do new things. I I recognize very quickly that I could not stay here, that I had outgrown that place. And so that’s when I pivoted, and I got into HR. And that really filled my cup because same red line pulling through, helping people.

Erica [00:01:56]:

I really felt like I could help people do that and just started growing and climbing the corporate ladder. And I made it in in pretty quick time all the way to the c suite. And I got to the top of the ladder. I was pretty burnt out. I was pretty just hypervigilant about perfectionism. I was honestly drinking too much because I was so stressed out at work, and I was so unhappy. But, Eva, my zone of discomfort is asking for help.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:26]:

Oh, yeah.

Erica [00:02:26]:

So do you think I asked for help in all of those struggles? Absolutely not. Much. Absolutely not. I kept going and going and going really until the point where my husband stopped me. He’s like, something has got to change here. I don’t know if it’s you quitting your job or what, but something has to change. And I knew at the time that quitting my job wasn’t the answer because that would take away so much of my purpose, and and I would feel emptier than how I was feeling. But I knew that I had to change.

Erica [00:02:56]:

And I started to do a lot of internal work to dig deep and figure out why do I feel this need for perfectionism? Why do I feel like I can’t ask anyone for help that I have to put up this facade that everything is great, I can do everything? And I recognized just some things from my childhood that pulled all the way through with people pleasing and making sure everybody was happy, and all of that was to my detriment. And then you couple that with I also had this belief that I would never make more money than my husband. I would never be able to be the breadwinner. And I looked around and I thought, that’s some bullshit now. Right? Like, that is some bullshit. And I started doing a lot of the research about women in corporate America and about the glass ceiling and the glass cliff and the broken rung and the leadership gap and the pay gap and the confidence gap. And, again, I thought this is some bullshit. And by this point, I have a daughter as well, so I’m even more motivated to make change for her because I didn’t want her to struggle the way I did and to feel so alone and isolated and, like, I couldn’t ask for help.

Erica [00:04:08]:

And that’s really what led me to a podcast, which I have called the Glass Ceiling and Sticky Floor podcast. And that started because I just wanted to talk to other women who were like me going through it, trying to do good work, trying to survive, and I started noticing all of those themes. I started noticing that so many women were struggling with knowing their worth, or so many women were struggling with the perfectionism, or they were struggling with staying in toxic relationships. And I literally started bucketing all of these things, and that’s what I turned it into. They’re different sticky floors. And I said, you know, we can’t wait a 132 years for this pay gap. Like, number 1, I’m a be 6 feet under the ground, so that’s not gonna work for me. Yeah.

Erica [00:04:57]:

But number 2, like, that is incredible. Like, my daughter won’t be around for that, so we can’t wait for that. So I I said, what can we do instead of trying to change the system, which changing systems takes decades? What can we do? We can start to look inside. We can start to look internally to figure out how can we collectively move that needle just a little bit so that together, we can move it faster. And that’s what led to the book, glass ceilings and sticky floors, which is all just my body of work and what I love talking about and what I love doing.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:31]:

Brilliant. I love that. Erica, can we take a a step back for a minute? And you mentioned how you progress through the ranks really sticky, but you still have this huge tendency for perfectionism and a very you know, a strong reluctance to ask for help as well. So I’d love to understand because, like, to me, I understand that there’s being a really strong barrier and you can only go so far, but you got to the c suite while still maintaining those perfectionist tendencies. Do you wanna talk to me about the impact that that had on you and maybe kinda looking back with 2020 vision, like, how do you view that progress now?

Erica [00:06:09]:

So perfectionism is so interesting because I think we all have this idea of someone who wants everything to be perfect. Their house is perfect. Their closet is perfect. Their kids look perfect. And for some, that can be the truth, but that perfectionism didn’t present itself in that way for me. It presented itself in other ways, like having a zero email inbox or always being able to respond quickly and immediately to Slack messages and phone calls and always being available. So that was kind of my perfectionist tendencies. So what happened with me is the higher I climbed with the ladder, the more responsibilities I took on, the bigger my teams, the bigger the expectations.

Erica [00:06:50]:

And I just figured I have to find more time. I have to figure out how to do this better. So I started waking up earlier and earlier to do whatever I needed to do. Yeah. And when that wasn’t enough, I started staying up later and later. And, again, burning the candle at both ends. And what I will say, Aoife, about burning the candle at both ends is for a short period of time, you burn really bright. You look really good.

Erica [00:07:14]:

You’re getting everything done left and right, but you burn out.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:17]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:07:18]:

And that is what we all experience because it just comes at you so fast, and you don’t know what hit you because it was working yesterday.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:27]:

Uh-huh.

Erica [00:07:28]:

But now it’s not.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:29]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you’re getting that, feedback, for want of a better word. You’re getting that sense of achievement. I’m doing it, and I’m doing it my way, and I don’t need to change. And then all of a sudden, it’s like, what was working yesterday is not working today.

Erica [00:07:46]:

And it comes very quickly and, you know, different things for different people when they are talking about perfectionism and as they climb the ladder, and and it shows up in different ways. But for me, it also showed up in caring for my team because I wanted to have this facade of being the perfect leader with all of the answers, and I knew everything when in reality, I didn’t. And no one does. Does. Right? Like, we’re not looking for the person who has all of the answers. We’re looking for the people who can get in the trenches and figure it out with us.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:17]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:08:18]:

But my perfectionism showed up in this way of I can’t let my team see me struggle. I can’t let them see, you know, that I’m getting up at 4 AM to answer emails. So I would put send delays on all of them because I didn’t even want them to know. But so somewhere in my mind, I knew what I was doing wasn’t great, but I didn’t know how to ask for help or how to slow it down.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:42]:

And do you think that this was tied in some way? You mentioned imposter syndrome as being one of the the sticky floors. Do you think this this was tied in in some way with imposter syndrome that I can’t ask for help because they’ll realize that I’m not capable. They’ll think I won’t I’m not up to the job. I can’t show my team that I don’t have all the answers because they will think that I’m not a capable leader. Or you know, was there anything like imposter syndrome going on in your head at the time?

Erica [00:09:12]:

Yeah. You know, when it has come to my corporate job, I haven’t felt so much imposter syndrome as I have the fear of failure.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:22]:

Yes.

Erica [00:09:22]:

And also the fear of what other people will think of me.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:26]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:09:27]:

So I internally floors me with impostor syndrome, I felt like I could do the job. I felt like I could show up. I felt like I had earned those stripes. I felt really good about it. But where I also really struggled with other sticky floors is, again, that fear of failure, so I didn’t want other people to see me struggle, and then the fear of what other people would think. And that was a big thing when it came to, like, my podcast. I’ve used this example before. I didn’t start a podcast for over a year because I was like, oh my god.

Erica [00:09:55]:

Nobody’s gonna listen to it. What are people at work gonna think I’m doing? They’re gonna think I’m not working. And I had all of these thoughts running through my head that kept me stuck for so long. Mhmm. And it wasn’t until I pulled myself out of that where I was like, why do you care so much about what these people think? And, you know, that’s what this

Aoife O’Brien [00:10:14]:

That’s such an important question.

Erica [00:10:16]:

So It’s such an important question. And it’s a very sticky floor for me. I tell people all the time, I still have a tendency to worry about what other people think. But now I have the awareness within to to recognize you’re caring about that, Erica. You know you shouldn’t care about it, but you do. So, okay, what are you gonna do

Aoife O’Brien [00:10:37]:

to do? Judgment.

Erica [00:10:38]:

Right. And that’s the thing. It’s like so for me, when it came to starting my podcast, what I did was I did something that and I love this. I can’t take it back. So I knew I wanted to do it. So I I got the courage to reach out to all of my best, most amazing girlfriends, and I sent them an email. And I said, I’m starting a podcast. I need your support.

Erica [00:10:58]:

Here’s exactly what I need for you. Right? It was one email. And I tell you, I clicked that send button. I’m, like, sweating profusely, like, oh my god. Waiting for my just waiting for my phone to go off. Somebody’s gonna text me. What are you doing? Yeah. Yeah.

Erica [00:11:11]:

Do you think I got any of that? Absolutely not. Every single person emailed me back. This is so awesome. I am so excited. Like, let me know how I can help. But just putting that out to my support squad, they then held me accountable to follow through with the thing that was was scaring me, which was what other people are thinking of me.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:33]:

Amazing. So talk to me. You have created this concept, which I think is very is a very visceral concept, the sticky floors. It’s holding you in place, making you walk more slowly. It’s dragging you back, all of these things. So talk to me about the different buckets that you’ve created around the sticky floors. I’d love to know a little bit more about what they actually are.

Erica [00:11:55]:

Oh my gosh. So we’ve talked about imposter syndrome. We’ve talked about perfectionism. We’ve got the fear of what other people will think. We also have toxic relationships in there. So are you staying in abusive relationships, whether that is financially, mentally, physically, or are you just staying with a toxic boss or in a toxic company because the pay is good or, you know, the commute is good, and and you can’t find another job like that? So are you just staying

Aoife O’Brien [00:12:23]:

with something else that pays the same. I won’t get the same flexibility. Right. I won’t get the same but to the detriment of your own mental health or whatever it might be.

Erica [00:12:33]:

And your happiness. Exactly. Yes. Now that’s one of them. Another really interesting sticky floor that I included was also addiction and substance abuse because I told you I started to drink more wine as a

Aoife O’Brien [00:12:43]:

coping mechanism.

Erica [00:12:44]:

Yeah. And so for me, kind of this uncovering and becoming who I am today, a lot of it came with giving up alcohol because I recognized it wasn’t allowing me to show up as the wife and the mom and the executive that I wanted to be. And I’m not somebody that sits there and says, I love to, call myself an alcoholic or some someone with a substance abuse disorder. That’s not my jam. It works for some people, but for me, that took the power away floors me. And I wanted the power to remain within. So for me, I decided to give that up, and I got so much more back in my life. Right? Yeah.

Erica [00:13:20]:

Another really interesting bucket that isn’t often examined is called pretty privilege. And it’s all about are you invited into the room for how you look, or are you invited into the room because of your skills and competency?

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:33]:

Oh, wow. Okay.

Erica [00:13:34]:

There’s a ton of studies out there. It’s called the study of polkronomics, but it’s all about how taller people, more attractive people, depending on the cultural norms that they’re in, all make more money. They get more promotions. They’re invited into the room then those who are, according to the culture, less attractive.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:52]:

Mhmm. I

Erica [00:13:52]:

mean, it even goes all the way down to the science of, like, quote, unquote, better looking kids in daycare get more attention from preschool teachers.

Aoife O’Brien [00:14:01]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:14:01]:

So it’s incredible just all of these things that are floating around us in society that we don’t think about on a regular basis but do show up and have an impact, especially when you’re talking about women in the workplace.

Aoife O’Brien [00:14:11]:

Yeah. That’s interesting. And I don’t think I’ve heard people speaking openly about that before. So what kind of impact do you think that that specifically has?

Erica [00:14:21]:

I think it’s gonna make you more aware of it. And I’ll give you a personal example is I never thought about it ever until I was interviewing for it was an executive level job one time, and it was in a company that I had already been an employee at, so it would have been a promotion. And I had to do 2 interviews. I had to do one interview with a male who was c level, and then I had to do one interview with a female who was a c level as well. And I remember getting ready for my interview with the male. I was like, I’m gonna put on this killer red dress. I’m gonna curl my hair. I’m gonna look good when I do this interview, and I’m gonna kill it.

Erica [00:15:02]:

Right? So check done did that. Couldn’t Couldn’t tell you what I wore with my interview with the woman. I don’t remember. I didn’t put any thought into it. It just you know?

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:09]:

And and keep in mind,

Erica [00:15:09]:

none of this touched on my radar until I started doing the work for the book. Right? And then what happened with that interview is I actually did get bumped up to the very final round, and I was one of the top candidates. And, Aoife, I will tell you, I don’t think that I deserved to be one of the top candidates. There were people above me who had more experience. They had more tenure with the company, that probably could have taken a place over me, and it would have made complete sense.

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:43]:

Yeah. And

Erica [00:15:45]:

do I know if wearing the red dress that day with the male c level level leader had any influence? I don’t have any proof. Right? Nobody has any proof for that, but I have an inkling

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:57]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:15:57]:

And I have a feeling. And usually, my gut is right.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:02]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:16:02]:

You know? But it’s about noticing those things, and it’s it’s about noticing, number 1, how you show up for yourself. Yeah. And then number 2, like because some people ask, well, what do you do about that? Like, if you’re quote, unquote pretty, you can’t penalize yourself for how

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:16]:

you look. Exactly. Yeah.

Erica [00:16:17]:

What do you do? And so I tell people, like, if if your looks feel like they benefit you, then you know what? You take that benefit, you take that privilege, you lean in, and you make a change when you can get enough power to do so.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:29]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

Erica [00:16:32]:

But, you know, it’s a game. We gotta play the game. You know? And if it’s any way in the other form, like, you feel like you are being discriminated against because of your looks or your height or your weight, then you need to stand tall in your convictions, on your skills, and your capabilities and call that out when you see it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:48]:

Yeah. I think you’ve raised a really good point about when you get to a a specific level of power and what you can do. So, like, not specifically on this, pre on, like, pretty tax. It’s not the pretty tax. It’s kind of the opposite.

Erica [00:17:04]:

Pretty privileged.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:05]:

The pretty privileged. That’s what it is.

Erica [00:17:06]:

Tax works. It’s they actually call it a beauty premium tax.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:10]:

The beauty premium tax. But I think more generally speaking, because what I see and what I read a lot about is women supporting women, but equally, I see a lot of this what has previously been referred to on the podcast as the queen bee syndrome. So a woman who’s had to fight her way to get to the top and wants to make it as hard for other people to do because she had to fight her way to the top or she’s trying to protect her hive or or whatever that might be. Any insights around that and how we can help other women, how we can put our hands down rather than trying to kind of stay insular once we got to that certain level?

Erica [00:17:55]:

Oh my gosh. This is such a favorite topic of mine because you’ve got the queen bee syndrome. There’s also the tall poppy syndrome. Have you heard of that?

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:02]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Erica [00:18:02]:

Tall poppy. So we cut down the the tallest poppy. And then you just have people who, you know, if I had to walk uphill in the snow both ways to school, you’re going to have to walk uphill in the snow both ways to school. And it’s like, why do we have yeah. Why do we have to make it hard for people? But there’s a lot of mentality around, like, if I had to do it, so so do you. And my good friend, Caroline, Miller Adams created a word because there was no word for this, but it’s a word about amplifying the voices of women and lifting women up while climbing instead of kicking while climbing, and that is ampli ship. And it kinda sounds a little funny, ampli ship, but it’s all about amplifying the power and the skills and other women who are doing good work and lifting them up with you while you climb. But when I think about this mentality and I observe it in other women, it’s really about a mindset.

Erica [00:19:00]:

Mhmm. Because if you don’t believe that there’s enough room for all of us at the top, like, you don’t really believe that equity is possible because there are more CEOs out there, I’m sure you’ve heard of this, like, by the name of John.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:13]:

Yes. And there

Erica [00:19:14]:

are women’s, you know, people in the c suite, like, period dot the end. So there can be that many John’s in the c suite. There’s plenty of space for us. So, like, let’s lift each other up. Let’s make it easier for each other. And for people who tend to do that kicking while climbing, I tend to challenge them to focus on generosity. Right? What do you wish you had when you were this age, right, when you were at this stage, when you were doing this in your career? And really kind of change that around because it is it is an interesting phenomenon. And women, we can be each other’s own worst enemies, and we’ve got to stop that.

Erica [00:19:54]:

And we’ve got to shift from this scarcity only mindset to one of abundance.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:00]:

Yeah. Totally. No. I love that. And this kicking while climbing, it’s again, it’s like

Erica [00:20:06]:

a beautiful

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:07]:

visual. It’s a great visual. I can absolutely picture it, but then counter that with generosity. What would I have needed in that same situation? And I think, yeah, this idea of the scarcity mindset or there’s not enough room for us all at the top and how can we better support each other as well. I absolutely love that approach. One of the things that you mentioned earlier was this idea of people pleasing and the threat that you saw came from basically throughout your life. Do you wanna talk a little bit more about that and and how that shows up and maybe how people can recognize their own sticky floors and their own patterns of behavior, even stemming back to their own childhood?

Erica [00:20:47]:

Yeah. So, Aoife, I have a 4 step framework to kind of uncovering these sticky floors because that is the hardest thing about them is they live in our unconscious mind Yeah. Most of the time. We’re not sitting there saying, I want to be a perfectionist, and I want to burn out. Nobody does that. Right? So my 4 step framework, it’s called the SNAP method, s n a p. It stands for stop and take note of the feeling in your body. N is for name that sticky floor.

Erica [00:21:15]:

Next, you wanna ask and answer some very deep questions, and then p is for pivot. And I’ll walk you through all of that with kind of my people pleasing story to show you how that uncovered. But the stop and take note of what’s going on in your body is the first step because so often our body tells us what is going on before our conscious brain can catch up. And so if you are nervous or if you have sweaty hands or clammy hands or a racing heart or nervous energy, those are all signals that your body is trying to tell you something.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:47]:

Mhmm.

Erica [00:21:47]:

So you may not be able to sit there and recognize, oh my gosh. I’m going through imposter syndrome. Oh, I’m feeling this or I’m feeling that. But you can say, okay. This is weird. Why do I have this racing heart? Right? Or this this is weird. Why do I why do I feel this nervous energy around me? So stop and take note, and then really think about your situation and name that sticky floor. And I always say naming it is so powerful because when you do that, you then take back the power from that saying, Erica, you’re having a moment of imposter syndrome, or you’re having a moment of people pleasing.

Erica [00:22:21]:

And so for me, when I was constantly people pleasing and switching back and forth, I noticed I was always uncomfortable because I was I just wanted everybody to be agreeable. So, Aoife, if you had asked me, do you like this type of music? Of course, I did. You know, did you know this sushi restaurant up on the corner? Absolutely. Did I like your boots? A 100%. You know, I would agree with everything. And in the moment, it felt good because you liked me and we were vibing and we were bonding, but then it didn’t feel so good because I was being agreeable. I wasn’t feeling authentic. So I just I could feel that anxiety kind of bubbling up in my chest.

Erica [00:22:59]:

And so that was that first, like, stopping and taking note. And then when I named that people pleasing sticky floors, and I said, Erica, you’re not being true to yourself. You are constantly just trying to be make sure everybody else is okay without checking in. What is going on? I was able to kinda say, okay, we’ve gotta figure this out. And that’s what led me to the ask and answer, which is like, let’s go deep here. Let’s peel back the onion and figure out why do you think what you think and, like, why are you acting this way and what is it doing to you? So a lot of the questions that I love to ask are is is this thought helpful and is this thought true? So to go back to the people pleasing example, Aoife, if you had said, Erica, do you love sushi? And I don’t, but let’s just say I know you do. So I’m like, oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Erica [00:23:50]:

And then you invite me to go to sushi. Yeah. Right. Great. Now I get to go to sushi with you, and I have to pretend to like it because you told me you liked it. So okay. So I have to ask myself, why did I think that I had to lie about that to you?

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:02]:

Yeah. So then I okay.

Erica [00:24:04]:

Because I want her to feel comfortable. Why do I want her to feel comfortable? Because I don’t want her to not like me. Why is it important for her to like me? Because if she doesn’t like me, then I’m gonna be alone. And so you kinda start going back and you start peeling back those onions. And for me, my parents were divorced when I was 2 years old, And, you know, I split my week between one house and the other going back and forth. But, yeah, my parents got divorced because they could not be more different than each other. Okay? So I had 2 very different households that I was growing up in and the expectation of how I should act, what I should say, what I should wear. It was different at every at each house.

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:42]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:24:42]:

And so I was constantly code switching and trying to be agreeable in each home. And when I really it was digging and digging at those layers and asking myself those questions, now I understand where the root problem is. Right? And a lot of people say, well, what’s that gonna do? Right? Okay. Great. You can’t go back in time to when you were 2 years old and change this. No. But now that I understand the root, I can start to make sense of why I’m acting the way I’m acting Yeah. And why I’m doing what I’m doing.

Erica [00:25:07]:

And then the final step is the p, the pivot, and that’s where the power is. Right? Because I can then choose a different thought. And I’m a big, big fan of your first thought does not have to be your last thought.

Aoife O’Brien [00:25:19]:

Oh, yeah.

Erica [00:25:19]:

So my first initial gut reaction to agree to go to sushi with you even though I hate it, now I’m going to spend $25 on some stupid sushi roll that I don’t like, I can say, actually, that’s not my favorite. Like, how about would you mind trying something else? And I can just pick that pivoted thought of, like, she’s not she’s not going to not like me if I suggest a different restaurant. Mhmm. Like, that’s insane.

Aoife O’Brien [00:25:44]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:25:45]:

You know? So I can start to make sense of that in my conscious brain, and then I take actions based off that pivot. And you do them in tiny steps, and then you can take bigger pivots and bigger pivots, and then you watch your life change.

Aoife O’Brien [00:25:56]:

Yeah. And, like, something that I wanted to add on that is you probably also saw all of the places that this started to show up. So the example that you’ve shared is in your personal life. You’re meeting someone to go for a rest presumably, you know, it’s not a kind of a maybe it’s a business conversation. I don’t know. But you probably saw or started to become aware of, oh, wait a minute. I think this is as a result of that behavior. And once you get to that root cause and why you want to make sure that you please people all the time because I can absolutely relate to everything that you’re saying.

Aoife O’Brien [00:26:32]:

The other thing that I that I wanted to say as well is that oftentimes with the pivot, it’s not easy. Maybe you do it once and it’s hard and you do it. And then the next time, you don’t do it and you’re like, oh, man. I knew I couldn’t do this. And you’re so hard on yourself. But actually, the more you do it, the more you practice, the easier it becomes and the bigger pivots that you can make.

Erica [00:26:55]:

Yes. And because I have this growth mindset and I’m constantly trying to expand and grow, I always think about my zone of comfort, my comfort zone. Like, in this little bubble, we all have it. Right? The beauty of your comfort zone is every time you step outside of it, it gets bigger. Just Yeah. Sometimes by a little bit, sometimes by big, but every time it gets bigger. So whenever I’m having to lean into those moments of discomfort, which as we all know, asking for help, things like that, those are my area it gets a little bit easier. You know, it gets I remember the first time I admitted to somebody that, like, it was a really crappy week instead of just, like, I’m fine.

Erica [00:27:33]:

Everything’s fine.

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:34]:

It’s a great week.

Erica [00:27:35]:

And that alone was a big act of courage for me to say, you know what? It’s really crappy. It’s a really bad week because I didn’t wanna show that vulnerability side of myself. But when I did it and then I got, you know, a normal reaction of somebody saying, how can I help? What do you need? Do you just need someone to talk to? It opened it up for me to do it again and again and again.

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:58]:

Yeah. And can we come back to that? Like, what did it take to make that first step? Because that’s something we touched on at the beginning of the podcast is this idea of not feeling able to ask for help because you wanted to have this perception that you have all the answers, that you are capable, that, you know, you don’t you know, again, maybe it’s coming back to this people pleasing and I want to be seen as this person who’s really capable and I don’t want to infringe on others by asking for their help. How did you take that first step and and the subsequent steps? And what did that look like for you?

Erica [00:28:35]:

For me, the first step was having my husband tell me something needed to change, honestly. And I I write about this in the book, but I say sometimes we are so deeply stuck in these sticky floors, we cannot even see that we are stuck.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:48]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:28:48]:

And so sometimes we need those that we love that are closest to us that know us to say, what’s going on here? And so for me, it took that moment of him saying something has to change.

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:01]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:29:01]:

Because I knew that I could no longer keep covering it up anymore. So for me, that was kind of my low moment, my rock bottom. And from there, I because I’ve now been through that, I can see if I’m ever starting to come towards that again. You know what I mean? So, like, I’ve been there. I’ve I’ve walked this path before. I know what it looks like, so then I can stop myself and pull myself back out. You know, other people, they figure it out on their own, and that is fantastic. Right? Some people have mentors that work with them.

Erica [00:29:31]:

But what I say is, like, feedback is a gift. So if someone is coming to you saying this isn’t working or you don’t seem happy, like, take take that too hard and listen to them.

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:42]:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So from all of this research that you’ve done for the book, is there one particular sticky floor that stands out that seems to impact us more than others?

Erica [00:29:55]:

Yeah. One of my favorite questions to ask all of my podcast guests is if you could go back in time, you know, to your very first corporate job or and some kind of pivotal moment, what piece of advice would you give yourself? And, you know, women are looking back 10, 20, sometimes 30, 40 years.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:11]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:30:11]:

And the the one piece of advice, which is a sticky floor in itself, that everyone gives, I would say probably 90% say this, in some way shape or form is I wish I had known my worth.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:23]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:30:24]:

And so knowing your worth is one of the stickiest of floors, especially for women and girls, because we are taught that we are less. We are socialized to believe that we should be small and quiet and good, and our boys should be big and bold and brave. And so it’s a hard one because we’re taught early on to devalue ourselves, and so we just consistently do. And what’s crazy is when we think about some of these things that face us in the workplace, face women, and we talk about the gender pay gap. When you look at surveys that I’ve done, the majority of women agree that a pay gap is real, that it is there. It is a problem that we face. But when asked if they are a victim of the pay gap, the majority of them say no.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:10]:

Oh, interesting.

Erica [00:31:11]:

So it is because we’re already taught that we’re worth less. And so we have to really just dig deep with the with the women and the girls that are out there today and really reaffirm their worth for them because that is something that is inherent. You know, you can’t earn that by getting a degree or a certification or a title at work. That is something that is within you, and so we have got to start working with women and girls across the world to make sure they know their worth.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:37]:

So is this showing up in salary, in asking for promotions? Is it showing up in in other ways? Everywhere. Picking up and everywhere.

Erica [00:31:46]:

Yeah. It shows up it shows up in women don’t apply for jobs

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:49]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:31:49]:

Because they don’t believe that they have the skills and abilities, because they don’t believe they’re worthy of those jobs. They don’t ask for the money for they give themselves 20 different excuses why they’re not worth the money. Right? Men just go ask for it even if they deserve it or not. Right? We don’t ask for help around the house. You know? All because we just internalize it. I have to do all of these things.

Aoife O’Brien [00:32:10]:

The mental load then we’re taking.

Erica [00:32:12]:

The mental load.

Aoife O’Brien [00:32:13]:

We have to think of everything in addition to do well, even if we do outsource, for want of a better word, if we ask for help or if we get someone else to help us within the house, even if it’s a partner, whatever that might be, it’s still the thinking behind it which takes up like, that’s that’s the majority of it, is isn’t it? Like, if I didn’t have to do all of the thinking around what needs to be done and just had to do the doing, that’s fine. But it’s the thinking and the planning

Erica [00:32:39]:

that’s working. Yeah. And when we talk about worthiness, you know, it’s such a hard one to say, like, okay. This is how you fix it, and this is what you do because it is a constant life work Yeah. In recognizing that you are enough as you are. Right? Because when we talk about worthiness, a lot of people say, okay. But what are you worthy of? Right? You are worthy of the dollars. You are worthy of your seat at the table.

Erica [00:33:05]:

You are worthy of your promotion, but you are also worthy of rest. You are worthy of breaks. You are worthy of asking for help and receiving that help. So just changing that view on what worth truly is. And when you change that lens, you can recognize where maybe you aren’t asking for your worth or or stepping into your worthiness.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:29]:

Yeah. Yeah. And it’s it’s interesting you say that because I’m thinking back to my early career and not knowing how to properly think about salary, to ask for what it was that I wanted, being told, oh, no. You can wait 6 months for that. And I in my head, I was so ambitious. I didn’t want like, 6 months seemed like a long time. Yeah. From their perspective, you know, the people who were telling me this, mostly men or probably all men, it wasn’t it was about well, you just have to wait that time.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:01]:

Like, I don’t want to wait. I don’t want to wait. I’m keen to progress now, and I don’t want to wait. And being told then, no. You you have to wait because there’s that opportunity hasn’t come up yet or or whatever. Well, I

Erica [00:34:13]:

think it’s just like the corporate way of keeping you small. Right? Because that’s on their timeline. So that’s not on your timelines. And they don’t take into account, oh, yeah. That promotion, you have to wait 6 months. They’re not giving you 6 months of back pay or 6 months of interest in what you might have invested that money in or 6 months of having a different title on your resume, whatever it is. Yeah. So it’s like you’ve gotta you gotta look at some of those things that are happening.

Erica [00:34:37]:

That’s more on the systemic side of things and then figure out, okay, what do I need to do internally to kinda change that mindset? Yeah. So I can do what I need to do to get what I deserve.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:47]:

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So dare I say, but the systemic nature of what’s going on has less of an impact because I understand my worth. I’m not allowing these sticky floors to keep me back. And if I perceive that something is systemic in nature in wherever I am in my career, whether that’s in a in a role that I have, then I can look beyond that and say, okay. Well, if that’s the case, then I can take a role somewhere else.

Erica [00:35:13]:

Yeah. Well and let’s talk about that. Right? Because we all have choice. Right? Now some of us have the privilege to make an immediate choice

Aoife O’Brien [00:35:22]:

Mhmm.

Erica [00:35:22]:

And say, I’m out. I’m done. Other other people, we don’t have that same privilege. We have financial obligations. We have children. We have bills to pay. Whatever it is. Right? We have these obligations, but you always have the ability to choose and to make the best choice, which might be, I am going to get out of this job in 1 year.

Erica [00:35:43]:

In 1 year, I’m going to be doing x, y, and z because I hear all of these stories about women who are stuck in these toxic situations. I even heard one woman yesterday tell me she is the only woman in the c suite, and she’s the only woman of color in the c suite as well. And all of the other old pale stale white males, it makes them uncomfortable. So they actually asked her to turn off her camera in Zooms. Oh, I know. That was that exactly. That was my response. Just the audible, like, WTF.

Erica [00:36:16]:

Right?

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:16]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:36:17]:

And when you get into situations like that, right, number 1, it’s not good for your mental health to be there. Like, hard stop. You do not have to be superwoman and change the world one battle at a time like that. That that will degrade you and just run you into the ground over time. Right? You deserve to be in every room, but not every room deserves your presence. So you need to be able to recognize if you are in a room that does not deserve you and make the choices to if you have the privilege, leave immediately. And if you don’t, make your exit plan. Make strategic moves to get out of there, whatever that is.

Erica [00:36:55]:

Right? Because nothing is forever, nothing is final, and you have the choice.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:02]:

Yeah. And recently, I I suppose this brings it all to a head for me because recently I met up with some old colleagues that I had worked with previously, and someone had been with the company for about 20 years, gave it her all. She was saying how quickly she rushed back from maternity leaves and, you know, she was just so such a loyal worker to the company. And then after 20 something years, she was made redundant. And, you know, it just happens like that. And so it’s important, I think, to to bear that in mind. I was lucky and privileged to be in that position where I could leave roles that I wasn’t happy in almost immediately. And that’s the decisions I was able to make for myself.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:45]:

And it really disheartens me when I see people staying in those situations that are quite frankly toxic because they don’t know any better or, again, going back to this idea of worthiness or imposter syndrome or whatever reason they’re staying in that situation. And I’m, like, fighting for people to get out. If you can, do it immediately. If you can’t, how do you make a plan to do that further down the line? Or how do you tell yourself I I’m choosing to stay here because I’m choosing to stay in this situation, which makes it easier to get up in the morning, I think.

Erica [00:38:23]:

Yeah. It can. You know? And and life can be hard sometimes.

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:27]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:38:27]:

Right? Like, that’s just a fact. And we’re not gonna know joy if we don’t know pain. And we’re not gonna go we’re not gonna know how amazing the world can be if we don’t know how crappy the world can be. Right?

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:37]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:38:38]:

And I’ve I’ve had both situations where I have been in in positions where I have had the privilege where I could, you know, just get up and walk it away. They call it f you money. Right? Like, I’m out. I’m done. So there’s that, which is always great. But then I’ve been in positions where it’s like, okay. This sucks. This is not for me anymore.

Erica [00:38:54]:

I have to figure something out.

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:56]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:38:56]:

And it could take years

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:58]:

to

Erica [00:38:58]:

get out of that. You might have to get certifications. You might have to get more experience. You might have to get another degree. I don’t know. Mhmm. But you start taking the steps today because at the end of the day, the time’s gonna pass anyways.

Aoife O’Brien [00:39:12]:

Exactly. Yeah.

Erica [00:39:13]:

So you might as well do something about it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:39:15]:

Yeah. Brilliant. I love that. So and so practical, I think, for people to start thinking about these things. I love that f u money. I’ve heard that before. And it’s like, yep. Have you got those savings ready to go in case you need them? Absolutely brilliant.

Aoife O’Brien [00:39:32]:

Erica, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Erica [00:39:40]:

It means fulfillment is really what it means. It means, do I get to do good work with good people?

Aoife O’Brien [00:39:47]:

And that’s it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I think good work means different things to different people. Good people means different things as well. And so no one wants to work in a place where there are like, where you just won’t

Erica [00:40:03]:

get along with people. You’re an angel. Yeah. There are 8,000,000,000 ish people in the world. Okay? So if where you are today isn’t your be all end all, then great. Like, there’s 8 point something 1000000000 other people out there that you can go meet and hang out with and work with and find your people, find your vibe, and stay there until it’s time to move on to the next place. And that’s all there is to it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:40:27]:

I love it. Love it. Thank you so much for your time today. If people wanna find out about the book, and at the time of this recording, this episode is due out around the time that the book is due out as well. Tell us about where people can find the book, where they can find you, what’s the best way they can do that.

Erica [00:40:44]:

I’m gonna give you the best place. It is my website, which is just www.ericaandersonrooney.com. It’s got information about the book, which will be out in the world on November 12th. So coming up now when this is recorded, might be post a little bit after, but it is there. It’s endorsed by Mel Robbins, y’all. It is awesome. It really is super cool.

Aoife O’Brien [00:41:08]:

Yeah.

Erica [00:41:09]:

But you’ll find anything there. I’ve got a lot of great freebies and things like success planners and book lists all on that same website. So erkayandersonroony.com.

Aoife O’Brien [00:41:18]:

Brilliant. Thank you so much, Erica. I absolutely loved this conversation, and I know that listeners are gonna take so much from it as well.

Erica [00:41:24]:

Awesome. Thank you. It’s so great to to be here with you today.