‘I always say if you don’t have a plan yourself, you will become part of somebody else’s.’’ – Katrin Sturm.
Welcome back to Happier at Work. This week, Aoife is delighted to welcome German-born, Dublin based renowned personal growth mentor, CEO and founder of Scale & Shine, Katrin Sturm. Katrin is passionate and devoted to empowering female leaders to reach new career heights in male-dominated industries and helps organisations close the gender gap through the incredible work of her business.
So many avenues get explored in this jam-packed session with many golden nuggets peppered throughout. Aoife and Katrin discuss how the time to scale & shine is now, unconscious bias, gender stereotype language in the workplace, your own definition of success, and so much more. The main points throughout include:
– An introduction to Katrin Sturm.
– Transitioning into a managerial role.
– The link between career progression and loneliness.
– Supporting women in business and bridging the gap of workplace gender bias.
– The power of mindset and the impact of imposter syndrome on businesswomen.
– Understanding what drives and motivates employees.
– Do women need additional or different support to men?
– The importance of self-reflection and identifying your definition of success.
– Understanding and aligning your value systems.
– Relocating for work: would you consider it?
– Katrin’s advice for achieving professional growth.
– The benefits of business coaching and mentoring.
– Unlocking self-appreciation: why we must be kinder to ourselves and acknowledge our wins.
– Don’t hold back asking for what you want at work.
– What Happier at Work means to Katrin.
Listen out as Katrin also reveals exciting details of Scale & Shine’s forthcoming Leadership Circle programme, a 6-month mastermind and accountability programme to help you become the best possible leader in a male-dominated industry.
‘’You should not compare yourself with others. The only person you should compare yourself with is the one you were yesterday.’’ – Katrin Sturm.
THE LISTENERS SAY:
Do you have any feedback or thoughts on this discussion? If so, please connect with Aoife via the links below and let her know. Aoife would love to hear from you!
Connect with Katrin Sturm:
Join the Leadership Circle – a virtual 6-month mastermind & accountability programme:
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Happier at Work EP 77 – Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and igniting empowerment
HAW 106 with Katrin Sturm
Aoife O’Brien, Katrin Sturm
Aoife O’Brien 00:00
Are you looking to improve employee engagement and retention? Do you struggle with decisions on who to hire or who to promote? I have an amazing opportunity for forward thinking purpose led people first organisation to work with me on the first pilot Happier at Work program for corporates. The program is entirely science backed and you will have tangible outcomes in relation to employee engagement, retention, performance, and productivity. The program is aimed at people leaders with responsibility for hiring and promotion decisions. If this sounds like you, please get in touch at Aoife@happieratwork.ie. That’s A O I F E at happieratwork.ie. You’re listening to the Happier at Work podcast. I’m your host Aoife O’Brien. This is a podcast for leaders who put people first, the podcast covers four broad themes – engagement and belonging, performance and productivity, leadership, equity, and the future of work. Everything to do with the happier at work podcast relates to employee retention, you can find out more at firstname.lastname@example.org.
Katrin Sturm 01:11
Have this self-confidence to say, well, if it’s not an environment where I could maybe shape the career path that I’m actually on, be open to even allow yourself and say like, well, there might be something else out there. I always say if you don’t have a plan yourself, you will become part of somebody else’s.
Aoife O’Brien 01:29
Hello, and welcome to this week’s episode of The happier at Work Podcast. I’m so delighted to have you join me today. My guest on the podcast this week is Katrin Sturm. Now Katrin and I met at a JCI speaking engagement. I was speaking on the topic of impostor syndrome. We both had a background in coaching, and we connected and stay and stayed in touch since then and we’ve had several really interesting conversations and I thought, wouldn’t it be absolutely wonderful to have Katrin on the podcast to share some of her insights with us today. Now, Katrin is a renowned personal growth mentor. She’s a career and leadership coach, combining her passion and strength of developing driven female professionals and leaders with 10 years of corporate experience in elite sales and leadership roles in companies like Salesforce. She has been a female leader in a highly competitive and male dominated tech industry and has empowered and mentored hundreds of ambitious females to scale their career, and leadership skills while supporting technology companies to close the gender gap further with her recently rebranded company, Scale and Shine. Katrin also advises b2b SaaS scaleups as a non-Executive Advisory Board member. So lots and lots of topics covered in today’s conversation. As always, I will summarise the key points at the end, and pick out some of the key nuggets for you from our conversation. We do go in a lot of different directions. But it really centers and focuses on how to empower female leaders to be more successful, or how to redefine success or what is maybe consider what a success actually mean for me. We go down a lot of avenues, and it’s a really, really interesting discussion. I’d love for you to get involved in the conversation. If you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, feel free to do so. Or follow the website www.happieratwork.ie, or connect on Instagram as well @happieratwork.ie. Katrin, you’re so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I know we’ve been talking about this for a while and I’m so delighted to have you as my guest today. Would you like to introduce yourself for listeners?
Katrin Sturm 03:47
Absolutely. First of all, thanks for having me. I’m so excited to be here today. So my name is Katrin Sturm, Katrin with a K and Sturm just like storm but a U instead of the O. Fun fact, it’s German and it actually means storm. So Germany is where I grew up in lovely Bavaria. And I left my home country already when I was studying international business, living in different parts of the world like the UK, Holland and France. We’re also started my corporate career journey back in the day. So I actually started off in supply chain and logistics working for companies like Airbus, DHL in Paris but soon actually figured out quickly for myself that sitting in front of a computer, dealing with spreadsheets, juggling data is not something that made me really happy at work. So I decided to pack my bags, despite having five different internal job offers, and go traveling, go traveling for four months, and just reflect on what I really wanted to do. And I realised for myself that like the interaction with people and yeah, really communicating the team’s kind of project team members – all of this is really something that gave me a lot of energy, something I really enjoyed. So I decided to go for business development in sales roles. And this is also back in 2011, how I relocated to Ireland, with Oracle, the tech business back in the days, really starting the classical business development inside sales roles. And then I decided to join Salesforce for five years of my career, really going into account executive roles were committed a lot of startups at the day, SMBs really helping them to kind of scale their business, helping them to grow their revenue as well. Eventually, I moved into my first people leadership role in my late 20s. So that was a very challenging, but at the same time, very exciting and rewarding journey with 12 direct reports at a time before I then took even another step in the corporate ladder, managing one of their sales teams. And then eventually, I decided to take the leap and start my own business, something that I’ve always wanted to do, basically. And I was always all about people and developing care, employees, leaders and teams. So that was when the idea of the company, the best possible year was born in 2018. So really getting the best version of yourself the best out of people. And we’re now four years into business and just recently rebranded to Scale & Shine, Scale & Shine now also incorporates the business layer of things because we help you to scale while shining within not just on an individual level, as you know it as an employrr, or maybe as a leader, where you can still kind of grow your career, and you know, your leadership skills, but at the same time, really feel you’re happy at work, feel fulfilled, have a balance, and really align it with your personal goals as well. And we also work with a lot of companies to help them scale by shining within and really, yeah, helping them to shine a really positive light on these massive growth journeys. We work with a lot of like fast paced, highly dynamic tech businesses. And often we find that you know, the culture gets a little bit lost. People, you know that your most tenured, most valued employees are getting a little bit lost in our journey, they tend to leave, so we help them that we, those kind of employees can still shine within the business as well.
Aoife O’Brien 07:26
Katrin, even I learned a lot about you during that introduction, there’s so much I didn’t actually know. And if you don’t mind, I want to kind of pick up on a couple of things that you mentioned. You mentioned about working for Airbus, I had no idea and you know, I just a big airplane nerd. I went to visit the Boeing, I went to visit the Boeing factory in Seattle. And I would love to visit the the Airbus factory in Toulouse someday, my dad is retired now. But he was a pilot when he was working. And so it’s just something I’ve always been interested in. And, you know, along with travel, and all of that kind of stuff. I love also watching aircraft investigations, it might seem a little bit grim, but it’s the whole, like, the structure around how to solve all of those problems. Interesting what you said as well about data and like spreadsheets and like, oh, that’s, that’s where I come alive. I love all of that stuff. So it’s kind of a nice compliment there. And, and the traveling as well that you’ve done. Amazing. And you mentioned as well about having 12 direct reports, as you know, your first time managing people and you have 12 people to manage. That’s like, that seems like rather high, I might say, you know, and did you find that a little bit of a struggle.
Katrin Sturm 08:43
Of course, there is a struggle to it. But like, I’m the kind of person who always sees like an opportunity in every kind of challenge. So for me, it really helped me to grow in the very early days, even just like question a lot of things what I see a lot with people who move from like an individual contributor into a management role, you know, the way you manage yourself, the way you manage your time, the way you set boundaries, the way you communicate with your stakeholders, the way you influence the people around you. And even the way you think about impact that you have on the business, because a lot of people are very used to the more hours you put in, the more you’re gonna get out of it and serve the business. But that is not necessarily true anymore.
Aoife O’Brien 09:23
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. And did you have a lot of support then in that transition? Because I know there is. A lot of people don’t feel like that they have that support when they make the transition from being an individual contributor to becoming a people leader. And you know, and it’s something that certainly people need support with. I saw an interesting statistic the other day about, only 28% of organisations actually have a leadership development plan in place. So like most companies actually don’t.
Katrin Sturm 09:53
Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a great question, because I know from my very own experience, it’s a very lonely journey. You know, you move up like, and even the higher you move up the lonelier it gets, to be honest. And when you do that transition, I mean, I was very prepared for this journey, I knew at the time that I wanted to move into management roles. And that being said, it came, the opportunity came earlier than I expected it to be. And I did not feel ready for this. So, for me, it was like jumping into cold water. One thing that really helped me, before I moved into that role is that I did my coaching diploma at a time, because it really helped me to develop people, how I communicate with the team, how I can, you know, hold them accountable for things and that I don’t take everything just on my shoulders, that was a really big a massive one for me. And I mean, the bigger corporate tech companies, you know, they do give you a lot of guidance in the sense of like, how do you give feedback, a lot of kinda hard skill based things as well, what I find a lot now in our business, and this is also why we developed actually one of our leadership circle programs is that a lot of the time you don’t have that safe and confidential space that you can go and show up and, you know, be vulnerable for a second, where you can say, like, I am facing that challenge, because there’s a huge pressure on yourself to always perform. You are constantly being watched, by your team, by your peers, by your management, it’s a lot of you know, constantly yeah, putting pressure on yourself that you can perform. And as a leader, sometimes, you know, you’re afraid to show weakness, you’re afraid to kind of go and say, well, I’m new in this, and I don’t know yet what I’m doing here, but which is completely fine. It’s more about giving ourselves the permission to do so. Right.
Aoife O’Brien 11:42
Yeah, it’s funny. Yeah, it’s so interesting that you say that it is a lonely journey. And the higher you get, and certainly when you get to that CEO level, and you don’t have, you can’t really show that weakness or that that sense of vulnerability to to others, or sorry, I’ll probably rephrase that, just to say that it’s more, I think it’s positive to show that level of vulnerability, but you can’t share absolutely everything with with, you know, especially people who are subordinates. So, yeah, you can show that level of vulnerability, but it’s still very lonely, because there’s not there’s some things that you can’t necessarily share. And I love this idea that you’ve created this circle where people can meet with peers and and share their experiences. I know, you haven’t mentioned it specifically. But it’s the leadership circle. Is that exclusively for women? because I do know, you do a lot of work with women?
Katrin Sturm 12:31
Yeah. So that particular program is, especially for women. Because over the years, I’ve seen that women just sometimes feel more comfortable and safe to speak up in a room or even a virtual room in that case, with other women. And even just the feedback, or even the transformation that we’ve seen in those six months programs is like you know it yourself, if you know, like we as women, we always think like we have to do everything by ourselves. You know, it’s probably also a bit of the mother instinct kind of syndrome, that we take care of everyone else first. And we always put our ourselves second or even last. So and like I have, like really impressive leaders in there that like just coming together and sharing things. And you know, talking about those challenges, and not just taking them on board and trying to figure out everything by itself has had a massive impact, because a lot of those women in those similar roles, actually, they faced exactly the same challenges. But we’re in such a bubble. And I noticed from my own experience that do you think you’re always the only one who does not know how to approach this? How to deal with their speed from a business perspective, even like, from a career perspective, how to approach that, like upcoming promotion, or even a lot of things is personal growth stuff that we actually tap into as well.
Aoife O’Brien 13:52
Yeah, it’s so interesting that you say that, because I know, that is certainly the same in a lot of scenarios, whether it’s in work or in life, that people feel the sense of like, I have to deal with this on my own, or I’m very much alone and no one else has ever felt this way before. And certainly that comes up again. And again. When I talk about imposter syndrome. People tend to feel like I’m the only one who’s experiencing this. And even when they become aware of this thing called impostor syndrome, they still think to themselves. Oh, yeah, there is this thing called impostor syndrome. But I really am an impostor, you know, and it’s, it’s this whole; I’m the only one who’s going through this. So it’s brilliant that you bring together this group of women, you know, in these high powered leadership positions, who can feel free to share what they’re going through to be really vulnerable. I know in some of our previous conversations, one of the interesting kind of facts that came up was the fact that they don’t like to be referred to as women in tech or you know, it’s it’s not about calling out women because sometimes that can be perceived as them being this underrepresented group. And it’s it’s maybe biased in some way that that the fact that you’re actually calling it out, do you want to kind of talk to me a little bit more about how that discovery came about?
Katrin Sturm 15:16
Yeah, absolutely. So about like, one or two years ago, we tapped into a little bit of market research, actually. And we found that, you know, well, I knew from my business perspective that I wanted to go and focus a little bit more on supporting women in those kinds of male dominated environments. They don’t really necessarily like to be identified as a female leader, I’m sure you’ve seen those posts on LinkedIn as well. I’m not a female CEO, I’m Yeah, I’m a CEO.
Aoife O’Brien 15:46
Yeah, girl boss, and all of those different things that identify women as women.
Katrin Sturm 15:51
Yeah. And I think that’s what we found, even during our research, and just by talking to our clients, basically, that, and I see this from the work I do with them. Because if you say somebody is a female leader, especially in a male dominated environment, you often you know, you yeah, you will automatically attached it with their perceived weakness, because you are the underrepresented group in the room. And a lot of the work that we do with those kinds of people as well is that we empower them that we plant a very empowering seed. So it doesn’t matter. You know, if you’re a woman or not, you deserve to be in that room, you deserve to have that seat, there is a reason why you’re in that position. People will trust you and respect you based on the knowledge, your expertise, the skills, how you come across, and not based on certain factors like gender, or whatever it might be actually.
Aoife O’Brien 16:51
So interesting. And this idea, again, around deserving to be where you are, that’s that has really strong ties with imposter syndrome, when sometimes you kind of feel that I don’t deserve it, or I just got lucky, or I totally have this by chance, or, you know, they, they like, I’ve carried out some research actually, on impostor syndrome recently, we’re just talking about that before we started recording. So probably by the time this podcast episode comes out, the research will be available publicly. But some of the kind of nuggets to come through for that are really interesting, and how it impacts on women, more than an impact on men, but it tends to stay with women for longer. So the big thing, and this is kind of a well, you know, no surprises there, that when you start a new role, it has a really high impact, you know, this sense of imposter syndrome, I don’t deserve what I got to, you know, I have no idea what I’m doing, I’m going to get found out as a fraud. All of these kinds of messages that we tell ourselves are the things that are really at the forefront of our minds. So it’s really interesting in that whole idea of deserving what you have, and, you know, any, any kind of any more thoughts or anything to add around that, that whole idea of deserving.
Katrin Sturm 18:07
Yeah, I actually see this a lot, over all the years in my corporate journey, or even in my own very own business journey that, you know, I think, like, as society kind of evolves, I think women, they tend to doubt ourselves a little bit more. So we have very high expectations on ourselves, we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, we really want to do a great job, we really want to succeed. And I think a lot of the times, it’s us holding ourselves back in this whole process. I always say as well, you know, the way you talk to yourself is also the way you’re gonna show up to the outside. So a lot of it is actually just a mindset that you don’t let it get in your head. Like because you are women, you might be less deserving, or you might not deserve to be in the room or, or whatsoever. It’s more about like detaching yourself even from those kinds of labels, basically, that’s exactly what we were saying earlier, don’t say female, whatever. Yeah, it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter what gender you have, because you’re just as capable to do the job. And as you know, there is studies out there actually that, you know, most of the time I came across a really interesting article, just this week, actually, that most of the time. The women in leadership positions, they’re way more competent, and they have a much greater impact, but they think just less of themselves versus often. I’m just generalising here, our male counterparts, they kind of overestimate their kind of skills, and they’re not afraid to kind of go for that promotion. Or if they take 75% of the job specs. for them, it’s almost normal to say like, yeah, obviously I’m going for that role, I will interview. Women are different. If they’re ticking even like 95% of the job requirements, they will still adopt themselves and be like oh, no, I’m not there yet. I feel not ready for this, so I won’t even enter the interview process.
Aoife O’Brien 20:07
Yeah, there’s, there’s so much to unpack there in what you’re talking about Katrin. And the first thing is about this idea of doubting ourselves more and putting pressure on ourselves. Do you think that that is because we’re women, and because I was gonna say society, but like, things have been very male dominated for a long time, I’ll just say things in general. And that kind of lends itself to a few different areas, a few different aspects of life. But they have been very male dominated for a very long time. And as you alluded to earlier, there are some industries, and especially the industries that you work with that are very male dominated. And do you think that as women, we put pressure on ourselves, like, even greater pressure on ourselves, because we’re representing kind of all women by by being in those more senior positions? Or that we have to have everything right, or we have to have to cope with everything by ourselves? Like, where do you think that this is stemming from?
Katrin Sturm 21:01
Yeah, that’s a really interesting question Aoife. So I mean, for me, I think when even if I look back in my corporate journey, for me, I never perceived myself as the woman in the room, to be honest, so that that was not something I perceived as a weakness. Yeah, what I see with a lot of women in those male dominated industries is though, you know, let’s remember, most of those companies were built by men, for men with very male driven values in mind. And I see sometimes that women are sometimes really kinda, yeah, being challenged by fitting in to those kinds of predefined, even corporate or company values, even just the way they’re being recognised, the way their work has been appreciated, what the company thinks they want and need. So this is where we’re really touching into the equity as well, because not everyone wants and need the same kind of things. Even recognition, like it’s as even a trend when I work with a lot of women, they tend to, and again, I’m just generalising here, they tend to care less about money and status, under authority, they are often very impact driven, they want to know that they are doing a great job in you know, maybe working with people serving others. For them, the recognition might be a little bit higher than that salary increase that nobody can see, or the title in itself. Sometimes these are the things that companies think make their employees happy. But if you dig a little bit deeper into you into the visual level, yeah, you might be surprised.
Aoife O’Brien 22:44
Yeah, yeah. I mean, you’re, you’re totally speaking my language here. Now, Katrin, like just, especially in relation to this idea of needs at work. Like, that’s what I did my research on. And while I didn’t kind of look at all of the various different needs, in the workplace, when I was doing the research for the dissertation, I did kind of consider well, what needs do we have at work. And I think money is something that comes up an awful lot. But it’s actually one of the least important factors when it comes to satisfying needs at work. And I think most people kind of kind of agree on that now. But this idea of the unique needs that people have, so there are three universal needs, and anyone who’s kind of a regular listener, listener to the podcast knows, have kind of talked about these a lot. You’ve got the three needs for autonomy, relatedness and competence. And it’s not just about satisfying those needs, it’s about finding the balance between them. Because if you if you ever had a micromanager, as a boss, which I have, you know, that’s when you have not enough autonomy, but you can equally have too much autonomy. So the pandemic, I think, in some cases gave people too much autonomy, they were at home, they they kind of lacked direction, they didn’t really know what it was they were supposed to be getting on with. And so they needed a bit more guidance around that. But people have then exactly, as you say, have unique needs. So things like recognition, and status and power and all of these other things. And it’s about recognising that on the individual level, you know, and, and facilitating those kinds of conversations. And it’s interesting what you’re saying about that. Generally speaking, maybe women have slightly different needs to man. And that’s not something I had really thought about before, but it’s an interesting take on that for sure.
Katrin Sturm 24:26
And I think like, you know, it is not really even just like gender related. I think it’s all about like understanding the individual like what they really value and you know, what really drives them? What motivates them, get out of bed in the morning and getting the job done. I think that’s also you know, we’re even like the leadership development comes in because I see a lot of the times that companies are doing a great job in in terms of employee branding that they say we’re a very equal employer. We have different values in place, but then on a leadership management level, there can be a potential clash, even that those individual people who are in those roles, they’re either not aware of those. So it’s like creating awareness and really training them. But then also, you know, on a regular basis when communicating with individuals or the team, or even just making decisions that you’re sometimes not aware of those unconscious biases that they might have.
Aoife O’Brien 25:27
And like, even before we came on, or before we started recording, I should say, and we were talking about this whole the whole idea of unconscious bias, and like, it’s getting a lot of kind of press these days, I see a lot of people talking about it. But I suppose the whole point of it is that it’s unconscious is that we are unaware. And until we make the unconscious conscious, then we were not actually aware of it. And certainly before we started recording, we talked about this idea of referring to groups as minorities, and I was called out on that on by one of my podcast guests previously, when we were talking about underrepresented groups. And I was in synopsis, and I talked about minorities, and she said, You can’t refer to people as minorities anymore. Because, again, with this idea of maybe lesser or, or less equal, or you know, less to give, it’s about underrepresented groups that they should be, they should have greater representation than what they actually have. You know, and so women tend to be underrepresented in technology, women tend to be underrepresented in a leadership position. So it’s about kind of flipping that script, but bringing the unconscious to the conscious and being able to tackle it then. But by that by its very nature, unconscious bias is not known to us. And we were even saying we in in the language that we’re using to communicate to each other today, for anyone listening on the podcast, we could have some unconscious bias kind of baked into that language as well.
Katrin Sturm 26:56
Yes, absolutely. 100% agree with Aoife. Because in the end, I always say you don’t know what you don’t know and it really comes down to the fact as well, as you were saying, you know, on one hand, like we allow ourselves to kind of learn and be and receiving that feedback being really open about us, you know, a great example about like, minorities or underrepresented groups. But on the other hand, as well, if you are part of maybe an underrepresented group, do not take everything personal and always feel offended, and bear in mind and even almost be compassionate with that person communicating with you or to you that they might not do this actually on purpose, they might not be aware of this fact, I there’s a lot of examples that even just come to my mind, we were talking a lot about like, male, female, there’s a lot of other, you know, different type of groups that you have in a company setting, it might be parents and non parents, so that you are really aware that like, you know, that you don’t almost prioritise one group, you know, in our society, sometimes it’s so normal to say, oh, obviously, you do have kids, and obviously, you cannot come to this meeting. I’ve seen even managers, you know, like taking it for almost granted that certain people who are parents did not have to show up at eight o’clock, or at six o’clock for the meetings. But if other non parent employees were setting their boundaries and say, Oh, I have to go at seven o’clock, I have a hard stop, they will almost be disadvantaged and looked at weirdly for like, but you don’t have like an acceptable excuse to do so. I think there is a lot of unconscious bias in all those things. And even if we called out like those people now and told them, they might be very surprised that they even acted that way. And can you communicate it in a way because they might simply not be aware of it?
Aoife O’Brien 28:49
You don’t have kids to go home to therefore it’s you have to stay working late or yeah, exactly, you don’t have this acceptable, acceptable excuse of having kids at home that you need to go home and look after or collect or mind or put to bed or whatever it might be. And that’s certainly something that’s that’s kind of it’s come up, it’s been bubbling under the surface on a few different episodes, for sure. And I would love to get to a stage of talking about that very specifically of the the parents versus the non parents at work, because it’s certainly things I’ve seen being discussed in various different forums that I’m in, you know, and how to support how to better support parents, but equally, how to not be biased against non parents. And can you give them additional leave, for example, that’s that paid leave, because of the lifestyle choices that they’ve made or not made? You know, there’s some people who can’t have kids, you know, that’s probably a discussion for a whole nother day. But thank you for bringing it up.
Katrin Sturm 29:47
Yeah, but I think it’s also what you just said, you know, being mindful again, of the fact that you know, there’s people who have kids, fair enough, but there is also who would love to maybe have kids but cannot be mindful of that fact too because not at Every one is, yeah, child free by choice. And then there’s also what I see a lot with the women I work with, you know, there is people out there who have simply not made up their mind if they want to have or not, which comes with like, yeah, a challenge with itself. Because if you’re a very driven and yeah, very ambitious woman, and your focus has always been on the career to make that decision to, you know, I almost hate to say, but like, you have to choose almost, you know, even if it’s just a couple of months of a break that you need to take, I know that it’s not always that easy to, like, find the right answer for yourself. And that and just, you know, as a leader in the business, if you’re male or female, that you are aware of so many things going on around you, because they’re men, when I work with a lot of women, like things like infertility issues, IVF treatments, miscarriages, is such a big focus. So it is around you, when you were listening to this today, like people are like, among your teams in your business, they are dealing with those issues, but they are not openly talked about. So, you know, let’s remind ourselves that, like, there’s so much happening out there, but we don’t know that some people might be challenged with those different personal things at the moment.
Aoife O’Brien 31:18
Yeah, absolutely. 100%. And I think it’s definitely something for everyone to be aware of. And again, I don’t want to paint kind of a general brush. But I think men tend to be less aware of those kinds of things that are going on for women and especially as women approach a certain age and you know, gonna get closer to menopause. I just don’t think it’s on the radar for men, you know, they can have kids. At any age, pretty much. Yeah, but for women, that really is it’s up biological talk. The biological clock gets ticking, you know, the kind of the closer, they approach that and that can happen for different ages for different women. And sometimes it can happen early. Wow Katrin, we’re covering a lot of things on the podcast today, we’re sending a lot of different directions. I would love to bring it back, though, to something that you said earlier about women and how women are often more competent, but we tend to underestimate our own capabilities. And I suppose where I really want to get to is how do we better support women to reach those leadership positions at work? And feel free to talk about the work that you do? And some of the challenges that you see that women face?
Katrin Sturm 32:28
Yeah, no, that’s a really great question. And you know, like, I’m even digging into this work over the last couple of years, even a bit further. So I think, first of all, even if we talk about like leadership equity, it’s acknowledging that everyone has kind of different challenges and different needs, if it’s a woman or a man does not really matter, in that sense, just watching that everyone different things. I remember, just before we started recording, that you were actually saying, you know, that women need additional support, and I challenged you right away. Is it really?
Aoife O’Brien 33:01
Katrin Sturm 33:03
Yeah, is it different kinds of support? Yeah. And I think from the work I’ve been doing with women a lot, sometimes it’s that they don’t feel that they have like the sounding board in place, you know, they do feel very lonely, they feel like they’re almost being watched, there’s a lot of pressure to perform in the business, obviously, the team is looking up to you, then you have to the performance pressure among your peers, as well. And there’s obviously a lot of expectations coming, we think also from the management. So it’s all about giving them the right guidance and tools and a space where they can just some sometimes just be themselves and show some vulnerability and discuss the challenges that they’re going through, as we said earlier, because most of the time, we think we’re the only one struggling and putting your hand up while you’re in, you know, a very senior role and you have maybe 50 100 people reporting to you showing the hand and say, I don’t know how to do this, I’m really struggling here is a really, really big one. So this is why we created a specific database that you can come together with like minded people in similar roles, and at the same time to work for very similar businesses, that you don’t have to almost justify and explain why in your particular business or company, it might be different. Everyone has the same basis to work from, because it is a male dominated industry. It is mostly fast paced, it’s very highly dynamic. And that’s also where I attract a lot of my clients because I know how it is to be in their shoes, and then you already work from a very different basis. Because you simply feel like those people get me and I feel safe to open up and but at the same time. This is where the magic that happens that like you know, especially in the leadership circle, because it’s a mastermind group, and as we’ve already said, you have so many minds that can help you that can positively challenge you who can give you input who can connect you with people who simply share best practices, how they have maybe solved one of the business challenges, how they have approached their, their career advancement, whatever it is. So really giving those women that space, but at the same time also, you know, it’s not like it almost sounds when I talk about it like a self help group. So the real difference is that everyone sets their goals and is very ambitious. And you know, when we meet on a bimonthly basis, twice a month, everyone has the accountability follow up to do I said, I was gonna go and do this. And you almost feel bad showing up with your new inner circle and say, I have procrastinated again, or I still didn’t get it done. And all of the women so far have said like, this is also probably one of the biggest things that you can’t just, you know, get away with it. And you’re like, Oh, sure, nobody actually knows about it. So I just push it off to next year. So it’s really nice to see that everyone, you know, has an interest in everyone else succeeding as well, that it’s like, very supportive, because as we know, sometimes, especially among women, that’s not always the case. So it’s really creating, like almost like a team spirit. And that sense that, you know, in the end, it’s a win win for everyone, because what you share with somebody might also help somebody else who’s just listening into the group today.
Aoife O’Brien 36:34
Yeah, you said something really important there. And I don’t know if you know, what I’m going to pick up on now. And that is that sometimes women as women were our own worst enemies. And, you know, with fire from putting the ladder down to support other women to succeed, we actually try and inhibit the success of other women. And they say we because you know, I could be doing that inadvertently, like, I’m not actually aware that I’m doing it consciously. But you want to kind of talk to me a little bit more about that, and what you’ve seen and and how women kind of almost sabotage each other at times.
Katrin Sturm 37:07
Yeah. And I think it’s also, you know, what I see a lot is, it’s a very good point that you’re actually picked up on? Because I think in general, we have the tendency to compare ourselves, right? Yeah, yeah. So and what I always say, even to the women in that group, and even in young people in general, you should not compare yourself with others, the only person you should compare yourself with is the one that you were yesterday. So, you know, sometimes we feel like, you know, we compare ourselves, when we are at stage two of our career, we yeah, we naturally tend to look up to somebody and compare ourselves who is already at level eight. So you can’t simply compare and index sense. And I think it’s, you know, just acknowledging this fact, and taking the time to even you know, sit down and smell the roses, sometimes, you know, I always encourage all of the people I work with, let’s just take a minute and see how far you have come that you look back on your very own journey. And not kind of, especially with social media, it’s a very challenging one, because everyone celebrate so many milestones and success, it is all about you becoming aware, and even, you know, being at peace with what journey that you are on. And it doesn’t really matter what anybody else is doing. Because most of the times what I see, usually it’s the women who are a step earlier in your career, who tend to maybe criticise you. It’s hardly anybody who are ahead of you. Yeah, go and look back. And I think just being mindful of those things, and then not take things personal, or especially not let yourself hold back because of this is I think, a very, very big one that is a I know the journey that I’m on, I have a plan and I know why I’m doing what I’m doing. And almost be prepared. Always also, you know, tell everyone that I work with that, like, the more successful you’re going to be. You need to be prepared for you know, jealousy, envy, hater comments, whatever it is, it’s just part of this journey of being successful. Because, in the end, to be honest, you know, if you, whatever you do, and you have those critics out there, or whatever, you are creating waves in any kind of sense, right? Which is something that is speaking positively about you in a way in the end anyway.
Aoife O’Brien 39:37
Yeah, yeah, that’s a really that’s a really interesting point. Actually, you know, you brought up this topic of success multiple times during that last discussion there. And I know certainly we’ve talked about this before, and we talked about it before we started recording as well, this idea of success and what success actually means and how the definition of success has shifted. For a lot of people during the pandemic, do you want to share a little bit about your experience and the women that you work with? And how that has changed for them?
Katrin Sturm 40:08
Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, like, as we know that the pandemic has had a big impact on all of us in any kind of way, what I see those specifically when it comes to jobs and careers that a lot of people now tend to question if they really want to be where they are, and want to do what they do. And if they want to be part of a certain Yeah, maybe company culture, or even value system that business incorporates. And there’s an interesting shift as well, because I think back in the days, a few years back, we were all kind of living by this by society’s definition of success, especially with younger generations, I now see that like, everyone embraces their very own definition of success, when we were touching on those different values. Everyone has a different definition of what success means to them. People are more self reflected, you know, they have more opportunities, there’s so much more possibilities in todays economic and even business environment out there. And, yeah, that’s a very interesting trend, which is, which comes as a challenge also for the companies, because as we know, there is already a talent, a war of talent out there. And people are, you know, they can choose really good ones, they can choose where they want to work. Whereas this, you know, the whole, I think they’re the hiring and recruitment market completely shifted around because of this as well. And especially now, because we’re recording this coming out of a pandemic kind of still being in there. But like, yeah, a lot of people going back to the office, what I see happening at the moment is, so first of all, a lot of people thinking about relocations, they want to be close to maybe to family, they want to maybe be in locations that like are more aligned with their personal goals, what they tend to do, like in terms of hobbies, or whatever that might be that they value more. And the other interesting trend I’m seeing at the moment as well is, though, a lot of people go back to the office or start traveling again. But not everyone is happy and feels comfortable doing so. So there is a very interesting shift at a moment. Whereas first before the pandemic, it was almost normal to go on business trips, it was normal to go on a company off site, and hardly anybody question if you’re gonna go there. Now I see, you know, people feel they actually do have a choice. Some people, they simply don’t want to, especially the introverts among us, they are like wow, completely overwhelmed. I hear this a lot, too. And then there’s also you know, other groups of us where we’re, well, maybe we can simply not go because of health concerns, or whatever that might be. So there is a huge shift at the moment, which creates, again, a little bit of a challenge for the companies or team leaders as well, and how you get the teams together, how you collaborate, and in what kind of setting you do so as well, right?
Aoife O’Brien 43:12
Yeah, yeah, that’s so interesting, actually, that whole thing about collaboration and the fact that people might have a choice. And I suppose the way I see the future of work is that work, people come together to kind of to socialise and to bond as a team, rather than and to work on projects, group projects work, but most of the work these days that people do, it doesn’t require kind of simultaneous working with someone else, it’s mostly done on your own and it can be done in asynchronous manner that you finish one part and or another person is working on another part at a different time. And then you come together and, and things like that. I mean, Katrin, you raised so many great points there about success and success being about this value system that people have. And, you know, again, that ties in with the research that I did, for my masters, this whole the importance, the sheer importance of values, I didn’t know what values were until I did my, my coaching diploma, I had no idea and I was aware of company values, but I never really took time to think about what what what are my own personal values, but the but the link or the relationship between your own personal values and the values that are not just sad at the organisation, but that are lived in the organisation through the behavior, the actions and the decisions that are made, are so important. And when people as individuals, as employees, see the actions and the behaviors of leaders or even just other people in the organisation, and they just think that doesn’t sit right with me. I think that that’s, you know, that doesn’t align with me and my values. And they think, Well, you know, if I have an opportunity, then I’m going to take something else. It’s really interesting what you said about relocation as well. And, you know, having spent some time in Tenerife for a month I’m definitely considering going back and going for a longer period of time next time. And just the fact that I have the opportunity to be able to do that. And I met people who were employees of large organisations, when I was in Tenerife, as well. So it’s just really interesting that those opportunities exist now for people who don’t have to stay, especially in January in Ireland, when it was cold, and it was wet, and it was dark. You know, being summer it was warm and sunny, and we had a pool and, you know, it just made all the difference. And I was recovering from COVID at the time as well. So it made a huge, huge difference to me. And so some really, really great opportunities for sure.
Katrin Sturm 45:43
Absolutely. Opportunities at one time, but also for some other companies, it does create challenges.
Aoife O’Brien 45:52
Yeah, yeah. Now, I did have a question around, or at least something that has sprung to mind for me is, if someone is listening today, and they are a woman, and they’re maybe a leader or want to get to a more senior position at work, any kind of advice, or any thoughts that you have to share with them, it’s something that springs to mind is this idea of mindset that you talked about earlier? But is there you know, could you expand on that a little bit more? And is there anything else that you would maybe add to that?
Katrin Sturm 46:23
Yeah, so I mean, like, I like your question about like, the more senior first of all, I would even challenge everyone who’s listening and thinking about this? Is it truly what they really want themselves? Or is it maybe somebody else’s definition of success, maybe the company’s career paths, like, you have to go and move into a management role, more senior director role? So really, yeah, dig into your very own definition of success to Kinder reality check if this is truly what you want that you know why you’re doing it. And if you’re doing it for the right reasons, as well, that’s the first thing I would say. And then I do have a lot of even especially women, reaching out and asking you about this particular question of like, what do I want to do? And how do you actually get there? Once you know what you truly want, and why you want it, it will be so much easier to look at, like, what are your existing strengths, it comes down to self awareness? Actually, it’s a journey that I’ve been through as well myself, you know, I sat down and asked myself, what are the different parts that I truly enjoy? And what gives me energy? What fuels me? Where do I really bring value to the organisation as well? Because a lot of the times, and this is not just true for women, actually, we think, you know, you approach it from I want something but think about like, what value can you bring? What impact can you also generate for the business, because in the end, it’s all about selling yourself, right? It’s selling your value, it’s selling your contribution of things. And then what we already touched on earlier, it’s not letting it get in your head, that you might be disadvantaged because of certain criteria, because of being a woman because of being part of a underrepresented group, or whatever it might be. And, like, what I found myself hugely, like beneficial, even get some outside perspective, do work with those mentors, or those coaches do take those trainings as well that you can even increase that self awareness and prepare yourself for this. Because in the end, sometimes, you know, you are most likely more successful and more skilled than you already think you are at this stage, especially for the women. And just embracing this and feeling empowered about this will kinda give you the last push that you need to apply for it, and then show up confidently in those interviews as well. So don’t be afraid. That’s what I see a lot to actively ask for it. I think that’s the last really important point. Because I always used to say, even in the corporate world, you know, nobody’s gonna come by your desk and ask you, do you want to take this promotion? Or where do you want to be in one or two years time, see it as a very proactive approach, plan ahead and communicate it and put a deadline and a timeline on it and say, this is where I’m going. This is where I think I will be a great fit. And I want to be in this position by and then also have this self confidence to say, well, if it’s not an environment, at the moment where I could maybe get this opportunity and maybe shape the career paths that I’m actually on, be open to even allow yourself and say like, well, there might be something else out there. I always say if you don’t have a plan yourself, you will become part of somebody else’s. And I think this is the first thing even to tackle.
Aoife O’Brien 49:53
I was just making a note of that. If you don’t have a plan yourself, you become part of someone else’s like that kind of hits the nail on the head. I absolutely love that. And I mean, you’ve shared so many amazing nuggets there this idea of, do I actually want to be more senior, or is that someone else’s definition of success? And I think that’s great. You know, we’ve talked about it multiple times, on the podcast, this idea of, do you actually want to lead people? Is that what you want to do? Is that what you’re good at, versus, you know, having another career path, which can may or may not lead to you becoming more senior in an organisation? And again, on the previous episode of the podcast, we talked about the business sense for having people at senior positions who are not responsible for other people? And how, how much sense does it make to have multiple people at those levels? sense or not sense, this idea of self awareness and understanding yourself and similar to yourself, Katrin, I feel like I’m on that journey about understanding what my what I’m good at, what brings me joy, how I can have an impact on the world, how, what, what the most important things for me to do are within my own business. You know, I’ve taken a, I’m a big data nerd, as you know, but I love taking various different personality profiling quizzes. And, you know, I’ve talked about some of them on previous episodes of the podcast, if anyone wants to know about any of the ones I’ve used, that I found useful, do feel free to, to reach out. And I love the shift in perspective of I want to like, what impact can you have on the business? And it comes back to this, like, what value are you actually adding? And, you know, for me, but I suppose on a personal level, for individuals, it’s about feeling fulfilled at work, feeling you have some sort of purpose and meaning, but also feeling like you’re, you’re working to your full potential. And I did, I posted a poll on LinkedIn a number of months ago, and 80% of respondents. Now it’s a LinkedIn poll, it’s not exactly scientific, but I just thought it was a whopper of a number 80% of respondents, and I think it was a little bit more than 80% actually said that they didn’t feel fulfilled, at work, or sorry, that they weren’t reaching their full potential but that they have more to give. And I just thought, isn’t that such a waste. And it’s not just a waste for the company, it’s a waste for the person that they feel like they’re being underutilised at work. So I just thought that that was really, really interesting. I love this idea of having an outside perspective, I see huge benefits from getting mentoring and coaching support for people, you know, a woman or, or, or otherwise, this idea of being more successful than you think you are, and focusing on the journey that you’ve had to date. And I think we all feel this, that you reach a certain milestone and and what we see as individuals is, this is where I would like to be this is the journey ahead. And this is how much road I have in front of me. And what others see is the journey that you’ve been on, and where you’ve come from, and how successful you’ve been. And it’s really important to acknowledge that and we did touch on it earlier, in our discussion, acknowledge the journey that you’ve been on and not acknowledge the success that you’ve had to date. And quite simply asking for it. So if you want it, then let people know. Yeah, simply say, I’m thinking of this, rather than keeping it to yourself. And at least then you can have a frank discussion with your boss, with your boss’s boss or with your peers, just letting people know that that because oftentimes, we assume that people know what we want. But oftentimes, we have to actually spell it out for people. And when I’ve done that, in the past, you know, they’ve turned around and said, Oh, wow, like, I didn’t know that that’s what you wanted, you know, you have to actually let people know. So I think it’s really, really important.
Katrin Sturm 53:50
Yeah, never assume that people know what you want. And the other thing is, sometimes we are afraid of asking for it. But then I always say like, if you don’t ask, it’s going to be a no, for sure.
Aoife O’Brien 54:01
Yeah, yeah, yeah, we call that someone gave this a little differently. I can’t remember who it was. But someone gave that name to me of this idea of self rejection. So if you don’t ask for something, then it’s always going to be no, you’re rejecting yourself by not even asking for it to begin with. So it’s really, really important to ask for it. And, and then there’s this idea of self confidence and building up your own self confidence. And you know, there’s loads of tips and tricks that we could probably spend an entire podcast talking about ways to build up your own self confidence. And but absolutely fantastic discussion today. Katrin, is there anything else that you want to add to the conversation that maybe we haven’t covered?
Katrin Sturm 54:41
No, I think like we touched on a lot of topics today. And you know, and even just, you know, you’re always about like, what does happier to work really mean to you? I think when you’re listening today, just bear in mind that work is not a place we really go to anymore. It’s something that we do on a regular basis. And I think you know, you You want to make sure that you enjoy this journey, we spent most of our time at work as such, you know. So, for me, it’s always about like, yeah, like the make sure that like what you do is a fire that actually fuels you and doesn’t burn you from the inside out. I think that’s the very last thing that I wanted.
Aoife O’Brien 55:22
Is that kind of what you would say? So I’ve kind of switched it up, I used to ask this question about what makes you happier work, I’ve kind of switched things up recently, to talk more about when I say, being happier at work, and like, what does that actually mean? Or what comes up for you when I say, being happier at work?
Katrin Sturm 55:41
I think it’s a lot like even thinking about it. Now, when you ask me that question. It sums up what we talked touched on today even you know, be like aligned with your very personal values, that you know why you’re doing what you’re doing. For me personally, a lot of what I do is very similar to your previous podcast guests, actually is having an impact, seeing the transformation in Yeah, in those different people we and businesses that we work with, you know, that people are, like, more successful, based on their definition of success as well, and that they are scaling their career, the leadership, but at the same time can be happier at work, you know, like giving that sense of, you don’t need to burn out that you don’t need to kind of, you know, follow the grind. There’s other ways of looking at work and all about like working smarter, not harder. This is just for me, my personal fuel, as I said, the fire that keeps burning inside. That’s a very, very big part for me, because in the end, what we do, and it’s the same for you as well, it isn’t the end of everything for everyone, you know, it keeps us going. It will help like the individuals, the leaders, but in eventually it will also have a positive impact on the businesses as well.
Aoife O’Brien 56:55
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I love that. So Katrin, I know that you have a new event coming up that you want to talk about, do you want to talk a little bit more about your business? And anything that you’re up to? And also how people can connect with you. They want to reach out? Yeah, absolutely.
Katrin Sturm 57:13
So we touched on, on our leadership circle today. So if you’re listening, and you’re a female leader, in a very fast paced, high dynamic tech or software SaaS business, definitely go and check out our leadership circle on www.scaleandshine.io. That’s all one word. And if you’re listening to this live, we have the next cohort starting into June 2022. We run this program only once or twice a year. So if you’re listening to it now, definitely check out if you qualify for it. And if you don’t feel like you qualify it for yourself, but you have somebody maybe as part of your team, as part of your organisation in the business who would maybe benefit from this, do get in touch as well do let them know because we have sponsorship opportunities for those people as well. And in general, as I said, www.scaleandshine.io. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. So Katrin Sturm, Katrin with a K. And then remember, like Storm, but a U instead of an O. You can follow us on LinkedIn, the corporate page as well, which is scale and shine, like all one word again. And feel free to follow us on Instagram as well. We just have created a new rebranded page here @scaleandshine as well.
Aoife O’Brien 57:13
Amazing. Thank you so much for the conversation today, Katrin, as always absolute pleasure chatting with you and loads of nuggets for people to take away today as well.
Katrin Sturm 58:41
Yeah, thanks so much for having me Aoife.
Aoife O’Brien 58:46
What a wonderful conversation with Katrin Sturm. I really hope you enjoyed today’s conversation, as much as both of us had discussing it. We’ve had a few conversations at this stage and we always come away feeling like we’ve learned a little something and we’ve had a really great interaction. So always great. Now, if you want to get involved in the conversation yourself, as I mentioned before on the podcast, I do go live on LinkedIn, as a follow up to the podcast to answer any questions that people have to enable people to get involved in that discussion. If you would like to get involved. You can also comment on social media or share the podcast to get the conversation going as well within your own networks. Please feel free to do that. So on Instagram, it’s @happieratwork.ie or on LinkedIn, It’s Aoife O’Brien, that’s A O I F E O apostrophe B R I E N. In terms of like pulling out some of the key points that we covered. One of the first points was about this idea of moving from an individual contributor to a manager and how it can feel quite lonely and how there’s not really maybe as much support as there should be on that journey. And they higher you progress within an organisation that the lonelier and lonelier it gets. And it’s about providing that support network for people on that journey. So you know, especially women, and we went on then to talk about women specifically, and this idea of being labeled as a, a female CEO, or a girl boss, and moving away from that language, in order to support a more equitable, I suppose you might call it a way of you know, of speaking about women, because it’s not that she’s a female CEO. She’s just a CEO. And it’s really about empowering women, and showing that women deserve to be in the room, we spoke about the fact that as women, we doubt ourselves more. And we put a lot of pressure on ourselves, we kind of talked about this idea of whether that is because we’re women, and we feel we have more to prove, because typically, it is, you know, considered to be a bit more of a man’s world. We talked about this idea as well of mindset and how it’s really how you talk to yourself. And this concept of imposter syndrome came up again, and again, there is so much overlap between what Katrin is saying, in relation to female leaders and progressing through the ranks, and impostor syndrome, there are so many overlaps there. As women, oftentimes, we tend to be more competent than men, again, a sweeping generalisation. So we have a few of those throughout the podcast today, I do apologise. But we tend to underestimate our capabilities. We talked about this idea that not everyone, and this applies to men as well, not everyone wants and needs the same things. And we do need to bear that in mind. Typically, women are less about the money and the status, but they’re more about the impact and the recognition that they get within an organisation. And as a leader, it’s important to understand what what are those key drivers that your employees have? So what really motivates them? What are their needs at work, we kind of touched on a little bit the research that I did, as part of my masters, I have spoken about that multiple times on the podcast, there are other episodes, you can go back to and listen to if you want to get more information about that a little bit more detail around that. We spoke about the idea that everyone is unique. So we kind of touched on that already. But this idea that is, you know, and Katrin challenged me on this, is it that women need additional support? Or is it that they need different support to men. And you know, and I’m happy to be challenged on anything that I say, you know, that’s why I do really invite people to get involved in these conversations, because it’s through talking that we learn more about these things. We touched on this idea of the pandemic as kind of almost an accelerator for people redefining what success actually means. And well, whether or not their journey that they’re on is actually someone else’s definition of success. So we talked about success and bringing that much more back to the value system that people hold, rather than the society definition of success, which typically tends to be, you know, getting to progressing through the ranks in a in an organisation earning money getting to really high levels within organisations. And really, it’s about taking that time for self reflection and understanding what it is that you want what it is that you need in order to be able to feel a sense of fulfillment, a sense of meaning from a work and feel like you’re working to your full potential as well. It’s important we talked about the importance of self reflection, the opportunity as well that the pandemic has presented arrange relocation. So suddenly, there is an opportunity for you don’t have to stay working in an office, you don’t have to stay necessarily working in the location where you’re currently based, that there is an opportunity. And you know, and I spent some time working abroad, and you know, it’s something I’m definitely going to look into in the future as well. One of my favorite parts of the conversation certainly was Katrin’s advice for someone who is looking to get into it more senior position. And the first question really was, isn’t really what I want. And this comes back to understanding what your own core values are and what it is, what is it that you actually want from life? And again, it’s something that has come up before on the podcast and I always love that question, you know, is developing other people really what you want or is is about the kind of ego and the status of getting to that higher position. We talked about the importance, the second point on on this this idea of progressing to more senior level, the growth of yourself, your personal development journey, the gaining self awareness having a think about what really gives me energy and where do I add value in this organisation. The third point then was being around shifting the language from I want to what impact can I have on the business? And where do I add most value? We talked about the importance of an outside perspective, be that from a coach or be there from a mentor that you have, but someone who can provide that kind of sounding board that outside advice and maybe a sense of accountability as well. We talked about the fact that we are often and I say we, I’m including myself in this, we’re often much more successful than we think we are. And we need to take time to reflect and appreciate the journey that we’ve been on. So what other people see is the journey that we’ve been on and how far we’ve come. But as individuals, we tend to focus on how much more there is to go. So don’t don’t forget to congratulate yourself to feel a sense of gratitude for how far you’ve already come. One of the last points then is around asking for it, so simply verbalising the fact that you this is what you want. So telling people about it, whether that’s your boss, your boss’s boss, your peers, just actually telling people that that’s what you want. And then the last point is around building your own self confidence. And you know, I have multiple other podcasts about how to build your self-confidence. So if you do want to have a look at those do go back, especially the ones around impostor syndrome and building up your own self-belief. Now, I’ll leave you with this final thought from Katrin, if you don’t have a plan yourself, you’ll become part of someone else’s. That was another episode of The Happier at Work podcast. I am so glad you tuned in today. If you enjoy today’s podcast, I would love to get your thoughts head on over to social media to get involved in the conversation. If you enjoy the podcast, I would love if you could rate/review it or share it with a friend. If you want to know more about what I do or how I could help your business head on over to email@example.com