218: How Can You Improve Happiness and Trust at Work with Matt Phelan

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:03]:

Matt Phelan of the Happiness Index. You’re so welcome to the happier at work podcast. I know we’ve kinda had this in the works for for a good while now. We had a conversation probably a couple of years ago at this stage, so really excited to dive in, to get stuck into this conversation, to talk about the happiness index. But before we get in there, would you like to introduce yourself a little bit about your background and how you got into doing what you’re doing?

Matt Phelan [00:00:28]:

Yeah. Well, thanks for having us on. It’s surprising we haven’t, been able to do this, considering how connected what we do is, before, so it’s great to be here. So, yeah, I’m Matt. I’m cofounder of the Happiness Index. So we measure how people think and feel about work, in over a 100 countries. So we use that data to help companies improve the culture, and the workplaces that they work in. So, yeah, in a in a nutshell, it’s, we’re we’re a sort of a competitor to the traditional employee engagement metrics that can be a bit cold, and not necessarily always get deep into the truth.

Matt Phelan [00:01:08]:

So that, yeah, that happiness index sort of goes a bit deeper than your your traditional tools is how would we we would describe it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:01:15]:

And how did you get into doing that in the first place? Like, what sort of prompted this? How did it all come about?

Matt Phelan [00:01:20]:

So I was, I was working in data, but from a customer perspective. So before the happiness index, we I’d I’d quit a job because I was unhappy, and I didn’t really have any options. So I started my own company, with one of my best friends, and it was it was good and bad timing because it was a few weeks, few months before the 2008 financial crisis, which you could look on the servicing as a bad thing. But when you’re starting out, when big change happens, the marble sort of get chopped up in the air. And it was a time when things like Google or Facebook were still relatively new. So we we helped, like, marketers understand how data can make the marketing more efficient, better, and more creative. And they have a saying in marketing that’s that is relevant to this conversation, which is 50% of my marketing works. I just don’t know what 50%.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:14]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:02:15]:

I said, John, why don’t I make a quote, from, like, 18 80 or something like that? But that world was being revolutionized. But then when I started growing our own business, I realized that data on culture doesn’t really exist. It kind of just comes down to what people say it is or what they think or, or who who the most highest paid person in the room thinks about it. So we built internally a tool just to understand if our employees are happier, are our customers happier? So that’s all we were doing in the early days. And then our customers kept asking for it. Like, our marketing customers are saying, oh, we could really use that in our company. And, we were saying, no. You can’t you can’t use it.

Matt Phelan [00:03:00]:

It’s an internal tool. It’s terrible. It’s, like, put together with Bluetack. Yeah. For you. I can send you I can send you the screenshots. I’ve I’ve used them before. They look they look horrific.

Matt Phelan [00:03:08]:

But it was doing what we wanted to do it functionally. And then eventually, I sort of realized my passion my skill was, like, data and tech, but my passion, culture and people. So I realized I wasn’t necessarily enjoying what I was doing. And when we had this early piece of tech, I felt like that’s what I want to do. So we sold that company, for for for a good valuation, and then we reinvested our time and money into the happiness index. So it’s given us a lot of creative freedom because, we’ve not had to, like, answer to VCs and so on. So we can build what’s right to build rather than what is the, like, buzz, like, the buzzword thing that is around particular time. So it’s put us on a really we call our vision is freedom to be human, and it’s about allowing everyone to be themselves at work, to thrive, and so on.

Matt Phelan [00:03:59]:

But it means we don’t deviate from that path because we don’t have, like, a big VC saying, you need to do this. We need to do that to so it allows us to have that long term approach. So that’s a really quick fight around the the history of that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:13]:

Yeah. But it’s really interesting, I think, that, you know, lots of similarities in our own backgrounds, And similar And similar to yourself, Matt, I found myself more in interested in the data, but more passionate about the people and culture and how to use data to to kind of get the most and and make connections in in that realm rather than, like, as I always kinda look back at a quite, you know, flippant remark, but, like, helping helping helping big companies get bigger, basically helping

Matt Phelan [00:04:51]:

Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:52]:

Helping them sell more of their product to to customers, which is not something that really lights me up. Exactly. But so let’s let’s kinda dive into the happiness index. And and, you know, whether you take us on a journey or whether you take us like, this is where we are now, but what kind of things did you start looking at if you’re saying, okay. So what I found was there’s a link between how happy my employees are and how happy my customers are. Brilliant. That’s great. But how do you then say, well, how do we measure that happiness of the employees? What kinds of things do you look at?

Matt Phelan [00:05:26]:

Well, the the easy thing is correlation. The difficult bit is causation.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:31]:

Yes.

Matt Phelan [00:05:31]:

And and how how so those that that that are not data people listening in, obviously, correlation. You can get lots of things that correlate, but don’t cause each other. So there’s loads of classic examples of, like, rain and umbrellas and, like, what causes what and so on. So it’s the first bit, we were just trying to under we’re just trying to get to the basics. When the people are happier, are people happier? Are the customers happier? So we at that stage, we were just happy with correlation because it isn’t something that we’re trying to bring to other companies.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:03]:

Mhmm.

Matt Phelan [00:06:03]:

It was just, sort of like what you’d say, like a sense check. Like like a temperature check is probably what we were using it for. So Yeah. We weren’t trying to be scientific about it. But then when we realized, okay, we might make this commercial project, We had to look into things like neuroscience to really understand, like, what motivates people. Mhmm. And that’s where the 2 worlds of sort of, like, data and tech combined with neuroscience. So we started to try and understand, like, what drives happiness? What are the top drivers of it? And you also encounter some issues when you get there.

Matt Phelan [00:06:38]:

So if you take the longest study into happiness, which is an American study, I think it’s about 80 years long. It’s a great study. It’s well known. Every week someone messaged me and said, have you seen this study? It’s brilliant. The and it is It’s brilliant. It’s brilliant.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:53]:

If you haven’t seen it already.

Matt Phelan [00:06:55]:

Yeah. It’s a really useful study because it’s the longest study in happiness. However, all the subjects in the study are male.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:01]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:07:03]:

So, therefore, what what what you’ve got is a study of male happiness. So you encounter Interesting. You encounter a lot of these issues. So what we were trying to do is understand global happiness. Like, what what are the unifiers? Like, what what what drives someone in India, in Japan, in the UK? Are they different? And so on. And and so, yes, there are huge cultural differences, but there are also universal things that are coded into us, that drive us all. So to give you an example, the top drive of happiness in a 100 countries that we work in is positive relationships. Mhmm.

Matt Phelan [00:07:42]:

So that’s not a cultural thing. It may skew more in one country than the other, but it still that still comes out number 1. Mhmm. But then the the environment might change what comes up next. So if you let’s take a couple of countries as an example that that that are geographically relatable, but very different. So if you take USA and Canada, in, Canada, acknowledgement comes up number 2, in our dataset, whereas clarity comes up number 2 in the USA for US employees. Now no one, including us, knows a 100% why that is, but you what it does is it creates conversations. So my my my view on it is a lot of it comes down to things like health care.

Matt Phelan [00:08:34]:

Because I’m a father, if I worked in a US business and I knew that if I lost my job, my children lost their childcare, I’d probably be asking my boss 25 times a day, am I doing a good job?

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:45]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:08:45]:

I’ll be I’ll be really checking in on clarity. I’ll be like, am I doing the thing that you need me to do?

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:50]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:08:51]:

At which I I think probably happening at a subconscious conscious and a subconscious level. But let’s take Canada where they they have something more similar to what we have in the u in the UK, which is like an NHS, which means if you lose your job, you still have, like, decent access to you. Mhmm. Maybe that allows that sort of, like, the hierarchy of needs to rise so something like acknowledgment goes up higher. But all of the global trends obviously fascinating, and they’re great to talk about on the podcast. But where it gets really exciting is when a company does it for their own, organization. But do you the question I always ask everyone, do you have a twin at all that you haven’t told me about?

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:31]:

That I that do I have a twin?

Matt Phelan [00:09:33]:

Yeah. Do you have a twin? Not that

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:35]:

I’m aware of. No.

Matt Phelan [00:09:36]:

I felt like you the the way, you look at that and be like, I was about to reveal that you had a twin, and you didn’t know that this twin was gonna come on to the show. But some of the some of the best studies into this area is in twins. So if you get 2 twins, anyone who’s listening is who’s a twin, anyone who knows twins, knows that even if they’re identical twins and they they will still have different personalities.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:59]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:10:00]:

What that and where that research is really powerful, what that reminds us is if twins are if identical twins are different, therefore, every individual is different. Therefore, every team is different. Therefore, every company is different. Yeah. So you get the top level learnings, but then when you deploy it inside a company, what you find, is always a surprise. I’ve never worked with a company in the last 10 years that got their beta data back and wasn’t surprised. There’s always stuff that people don’t

Aoife O’Brien [00:10:31]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:10:31]:

Really? I didn’t know that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:10:33]:

Yes. So on a global level, it’s you can sort of generalize and say, well, this in this country, it’s this kind of order, this hierarchy. Whereas when you’re looking at an individual company, because individuals are unique, everyone is different, it’s really hard to know in advance, well, what is that going to look like? And and I suppose I’d love to explore a little bit more, being the data nerd that I am. How do you look at that? Like, is that more on an individual basis? Is it a team basis? Is it overall for the company? And then kind of building on that, what are the big challenges? Are there any themes across different companies that you’re seeing that are coming through?

Matt Phelan [00:11:18]:

Yeah. There’s huge themes. So the the first thing clients do is they they take what we call the cultural assessment. It’s it’s the equivalent in medical terms of sort of going in for your Bupa test where they they measure everything. So we measure that just to get a read of of where you are on your journey because there’s no judgment here. Some people have terrible cultures, some people have great cultures. It doesn’t really matter. What’s important is, are you gonna try and improve it? But before you can improve it, you need to know where to start.

Matt Phelan [00:11:51]:

So we we do the culture assessment just to get a bit of a feel of where you are. Then when we’ve got that, that’s when you can then, like, focus in and say, okay. Going back to your point. Psychological safety is low in this company. Let’s put a program in place to start to improve that. And then, you track it again to see how it’s working. And it’s so it’s it’s a it’s a game of continual improvement, but we always one of the thing that happens with the happiness index, we get a bit typecast is people in their head, although we call it the happiness index, in their head, they think that we’re the high happiness index. So they make an assumption that we are only advocating for high levels of happiness, which ultimately is great.

Matt Phelan [00:12:36]:

Like, we want people to be happy and and so on. But what it really is is the it’s the data behind emotions that help you understand and create cultural cultural intelligence in your organization on the stuff that you need to improve. So we are not advocates for what we we would call, like, toxic positivity, where you’re, like, forcing everyone to be happy all the time. What we’re trying to do is understand, like, the drivers of what’s motivating people and not motivating people so you can improve the culture. Mhmm. And that we always make that distinction because some people think, like, we’re that we’re like hippies that are gonna just be saying, like, everyone has to be happy all the time.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:15]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:13:16]:

But it’s not just

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:17]:

get around in a circle and start singing and yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:13:20]:

Yeah. Which is if you wanna do that, there’s no I’ve got no issue with that. But what we do is you can learn as much from what is making people unhappy in your organization as what makes them happy. And both data is is key. So I say to everyone, emotions are data points. Stop trying to, like, label them as positive or negative and just go your body, your brain is communicating with you. Are you prepared to listen to it? Now all the happiness index does it does that on scale. It’s doing it with companies of a 100 employees up to 400,000.

Matt Phelan [00:13:54]:

So when you’re a CEO, you’re getting all that data in, and we’re organizing it for them. But on an individual level, that’s all it’s doing. If if you if you go to work every day and you feel fear, your body’s telling you something. And it’s it’s it’s an opportunity to investigate and understand. Now there’s a hundred reasons why you might be feel feel feeling fearful. You might have a a manager that’s bullying you, but maybe you just feel uncomfortable in that environment because it’s not inclusive. Or maybe maybe you haven’t got the training that you need, and you need to go and speak to someone. And they’ll go, oh, great.

Matt Phelan [00:14:26]:

Yeah. No. We’ll get you some training on that. It’s not a problem. But it’s it’s a data point, isn’t it? Like, right. And so rather than thinking of emotions, it’s like, let’s take anger. Rather thinking of it as a bad thing, like, why do try and help people understand why do I feel angry, and how can I how can I use that data?

Aoife O’Brien [00:14:45]:

And do people use that on an individual basis, or is it kind of is it more for managers or a company, or is it all 3?

Matt Phelan [00:14:52]:

I think it’s all it’s all 3. I think if you can get it from a c o CEO level, if you got less than a 100 employees, you generally know most people’s names, and you can walk around or speak to most people. Yeah. Once you start getting above, like, the Dunbar number, which is, like, 120 where where tribes and groups start to break down, it’s really difficult to have emotional intelligence and get get a feel for how everyone’s feeling in the organization. So the CEO is using it for the top level because if you’re about to go and do a big presentation, you kinda need to know how everyone’s feeling, because that’s so you don’t come across as tone deaf. So that’s the top level. The middle level is, like, managers using it to improve their teams.

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:32]:

Mhmm.

Matt Phelan [00:15:32]:

Right? You find out, okay. This manager, me, I know I’m bad at this. I I can be quite bad at offering clarity for teams that I work in. And it’s something I have to work at. So let’s say I get my data back and it says that, then I’m like, right. Okay. That’s what I need to improve. So the so it empowers the managers.

Matt Phelan [00:15:53]:

But then on an individual level, reflecting it on yourself, it has to be 2 ways as well because one of the first things that we do, and I put put it all in all my talks is you can’t make any of your employees happy. Mhmm. You can’t make your wife happy. You can’t make your husband happy. You can’t make your children happy. You can’t make yourself happy. What you can do is create the right environment and be in the right environment And because it’s a two way street, like, your company can provide all the things that drive happiness. We’ve touched on a few of them.

Matt Phelan [00:16:24]:

Psychological safety, feelings of acknowledgement, freedom to take opportunities. They can provide all of those, but still doesn’t mean you’ll be happy. So it is a two way street of the individual also, trying to understand, like, what’s working for them and what they need. So I think personally, it it starts the process of people knowing each other a lot better.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:51]:

So it’s kind of almost a conversation opener. Like, these are the kinds of things that are working for me at the moment. These are the kinds of things that are not working for me. So let’s take acknowledgment acknowledgment as an example. You were saying that that’s that’s quite high in Canada generally. But let’s say, like, a lot of people have this need to be acknowledged, to feel seen, to feel heard, to feel understood in their workplace. And then they can see from the data that that’s something that’s not happening for them on an individual basis, and then use that language to have a conversation and see what can change.

Matt Phelan [00:17:28]:

That’s that’s exactly it. And so, like, let’s let’s do I’ll just do an example of what I did with my team recently. So we’ve plotted. We we just wrote on a board. This is you don’t even anyone everyone listening, they they don’t need to happen they don’t need to work with happiness unless they do this, but I would let’s do it together. So the top four drivers of happiness are safety, relationships, freedom, and acknowledgment. Now I noticed you’ve written them down. Right? I’m just gonna ask you to rank the number one for you.

Matt Phelan [00:17:57]:

What would you what would you say the number one is for you personally?

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:05]:

That’s interesting because I probably would have said freedom, and then he said acknowledgment. Acknowledgment, I think, is really high for me. Recognition, that kind of thing. Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:18:15]:

So that’s if we’re let’s say we’re co CEOs of this new happiness business, I need to know that. Yeah. Because I might not I I you it’s it’s it’s been such a simple process. I didn’t know that before we started this call, but I now know that. So, and I know and I know and I know, and I’ve had that feedback from one of my team members. Sometimes I can forget on that element because start ups and tech is so fast paced. I like I have to mentally practice to stop mid project and mid to acknowledge how far we’ve progressed Yes. Because I’m always on to the next thing.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:50]:

Oh, I’m exactly the same. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You’re on to the next thing before the the first thing is even you’re thinking ahead of what’s what’s gonna be happening next.

Matt Phelan [00:18:59]:

Yeah. So anyone who’s listening, do that with your team, like your 6, 7 people, and do it as a project together. You know, and you need a pen and a piece of paper or Yeah. You can do it on a Zoom call. And it just you just get to know the people around you. Like and this is why I think styles and managers adapting is really important because let’s take a couple of other points that come lower down. Let’s take so my my one is freedom. Right? Mhmm.

Matt Phelan [00:19:25]:

That’s top driver for me. But let’s take let’s compare freedom and clarity. I’ve got 2 people in my team. 1 who says freedom is number 1, and one who says clarity is number 1.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:36]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:19:37]:

Now the one who wants who says freedom, they really want to they wanna know from me once a month what they want what I need from them and what they need from me. They wanna go off, and when they need me, they’ll come back to me. The clarity one wants to meet with me regularly to check-in that that that the progress they’re making is in the right direction.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:58]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:19:59]:

Now if I manage them both in the same way, the one who wants freedom would think I was a micromanager.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:04]:

Yeah. And

Matt Phelan [00:20:05]:

the one who think who wants clarity would think I didn’t care.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:08]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:20:09]:

So, again and that’s where, like like, regression to the averages or regression to the mean or whatever you wanna call it can be dangerous because, actually, if I found a midway of managing them both, they’d probably both not be happy.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:22]:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:20:23]:

I actually need to adapt what they need from me. So all it is all these things are is they’re just models for for people to better understand each other. And the better we understand each other in our teams, that’s how you improve happiness, which is why it’s not a bad thing to find out that you’re not fulfilling your team’s needs because, you know, the flip of that is never to know, and then people resign, people are unhappy, people get disengaged. So Yeah. The date is just it’s just awareness. That’s all it is.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:55]:

Mhmm. And are people sort of afraid of finding out? Like, are they kind of would they prefer to live under a rock and not know rather than acknowledge that they’ve been doing something maybe that’s not been too beneficial or that they could improve in some way?

Matt Phelan [00:21:09]:

This this is where you’re going with this is probably the biggest elephant in the room of the whole subject because there are people that want to know. Yeah. But there are people who don’t want to know. And that’s that’s really challenging because the happiness index goes deeper than than than what you would with a normal engagement tool. So some people are happy with their spreadsheet saying everything is green, everything’s going up, and all is rosy. When you get on the ground, you speak to people you know it’s not.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:39]:

But Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:21:40]:

I think if if I’m being kind, I think a lot of it comes from fear.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:45]:

Yeah. Of course. Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:21:47]:

And it’s the fear of having to like, CEOs thinking they have to have the answer to everything. CEOs not feeling comfortable being vulnerable. CEOs not being comfortable standing up going, you know what? We failed on this. Mhmm. We’re gonna fix it. Or we failed on this. We can’t actually fix this because this is, what happened. That this is an impossible thing for us to fix, but this is a different route we’re gonna go.

Matt Phelan [00:22:13]:

Like, the one of the things that I say to CEOs a lot on this subject, I I always ask them a rhetorical question, which is, do you, do you break childlike labor laws? And then I just let them think on that one. Yeah. And then hopefully, a 100% of the time, they’re they’re gonna say, no. We do not break child labor laws.

Aoife O’Brien [00:22:33]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:22:34]:

The reason I ask that is because every everything that the CEO is worried about acknowledging, all your employees are already dealing with at home. The budget. Yeah. Comms issues, people falling out, mental health issues, burnout, the kitchen. All everything from small to big, everyone that works for you is an adult. So they’re already dealing with these issues. So if you stand up and you are authentic and you say, look. No.

Matt Phelan [00:23:04]:

We’ve we’ve missed target on this. We’re not doing that. We’re not doing well here. This is where we wanna improve. This is what I need from everyone. People get it. Yeah. When you stand up and you say everything’s alright, but they know it’s not alright, you’re just you’re just you’re just to to the person who’s receiving it, they’re just thinking you are totally out of touch with what’s happening in this organization.

Matt Phelan [00:23:26]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:27]:

Yeah. That takes away the trust completely. It completely erodes the trust because they’re not being authentic. They’re not being

Matt Phelan [00:23:32]:

Yeah. And the second thing that happens. So firstly, people fear finding out. So you’re right. That does happen, which is a subject we just discussed. The second thing that happens is people find out that things are not great, and then they fear if we tell people that they’re not great

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:49]:

okay.

Matt Phelan [00:23:49]:

That it all that that will be a bad idea. But I Yeah. I like to explain to people, but they’re the people that told you it’s not great.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:58]:

So they know already.

Matt Phelan [00:23:59]:

They already know. Yes. They’re the ones who told you. They know. Yeah. They’re the ones that told you. All you’re doing is acknowledging it. And and interestingly, just acknowledging it actually improves happiness.

Matt Phelan [00:24:13]:

So that obviously, you then need to go on to action and you need to do something about it. But sometimes employees are just frustrated because they feel like leadership are not acknowledging what’s going on in the organization. So the first fit first bit is people are fearful of finding out. 2nd, there are some people who wanna bury it. But when you get can get someone 1 on 1 and can do it this in an interesting light, just just to remind people they already know and say it to them in plain terms, then they go, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:24:42]:

And it’s like and you can move you can move forward because if you if you rule out, like, the really bad, like, incompetent CEOs that maybe just shouldn’t be in the job, Most CEOs are trying to do a really good job. They’re just they’re just not sure where to go, and they don’t necessarily have the right people to speak to. So and that’s where data comes in. It helps helps lighten up the path.

Aoife O’Brien [00:25:04]:

Yeah. There’s a there’s a couple of things that I’m kind of, I suppose, relating to in what you’re saying is these kinds of things, while you applied in the workplace, actually, it could be applied at home as well. The acknowledgment, the clarity, you know, setting clear all of that kind of stuff, you can apply it in probably multiple different contexts, not just we just happen to be talking about applying it in the workplace.

Matt Phelan [00:25:30]:

Yeah. I think this is the the the main thing I can’t prove from our data, but it’s probably the area that I’m I’m increasingly more passionate about. I what what you’ve just said there, I wholeheartedly believe. I we again, because we’re we’re into the research and the data, I can’t prove that. But I do know that my wife constantly says, how come all this stuff that you do at work, you’re not great at at home? So I know it’s important, and I’m I’m pretty sure these employees that we call employees who who are actually really human beings, it does apply at home. And that and that’s one thing I always tell people to go away and think about. How could you apply this at home? But Yeah. I’m pretty sure it’s the same in every family, every friendship group, every sports club.

Matt Phelan [00:26:16]:

And like I say, like, I I don’t wanna make statements about data because I haven’t personally researched that, but it I’ve written a couple of books on the subject. Probably if I wanted to write another one, which I’m not sure I’d do, it would be for children.

Aoife O’Brien [00:26:30]:

Okay.

Matt Phelan [00:26:30]:

Yeah. Because I think, I think, actually, basic level. Like, you think about how AI is gonna revolutionize the workplace. Memorizing your alphabet, is it more important to do that, or is it more important to understand how mental health works as an example?

Aoife O’Brien [00:26:54]:

Yeah. Brilliant. Can we come back to this idea of it doesn’t have to be high happiness and it’s not happiness for happiness’ sake and it’s not all toxic positivity? And you mentioned that there are some people come to you and actually the culture is not in a great shape. And then there’s probably the people who are not listening to this podcast who are not interested in their culture whatsoever, even if it’s in a terrible shape. So talk to me a little bit about the people who come to you when they they know their culture needs to be improved and they want to do something about it. What kind of things are going through their minds?

Matt Phelan [00:27:32]:

So it is again, to use the medical, analogy where, like, the first thing is the Bupa test, like, the culture assessment. Most people come to us with symptoms.

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:41]:

Okay.

Matt Phelan [00:27:42]:

Most people don’t come to us and say, I want a happy workforce. Yes. Yeah. That was the case. And that is in like, work by you, your podcast. We’re a small community, really. Everyone kinda knows everyone. But I do think that that is changing it slightly.

Matt Phelan [00:27:59]:

Like, more people are doing that. But, generally, people come to us and say, my metrics my engagement metrics say everything’s fine, but I know I’ve I’m having conversations with people and everyone’s saying they hate it, working here, and they can’t they can’t do this. And we can see in the attrition numbers or we’re losing all our account management stuff, and our customers are unhappy. There’s normally a symptom.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:23]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:28:23]:

And they come to us with a symptom, and we say, well, let’s do let’s do the check first. Let’s do the let’s not make the assumptions. That’s why I always say everyone’s kinda surprised because people will come at it with the the the sad reality is the higher you are up in an organization, the more your employees lie to you. And I mean that in a nice, peaceful light because there’s a power dynamic in place that you pay their wages. And at the stroke of a a keyboard, you could put them into some process that means they lose their job.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:53]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:28:53]:

Not not saying whether that’s right or wrong, but that power structure exists. So it means it’s hard to actually really get a feel for how your people feel. But but people have got their guts, and guts are as important. They’re an important part of data, and we we include that in our work as well. And so a lot of people, and they’ll be listening to this and be like, yes. Something’s just not right. And then then then they’ll come to us. And then the bit that we’ve really focused on the last the lot this year and so on is how you then help turn that into performance.

Matt Phelan [00:29:24]:

Yeah. Because when we started out, it was simply measure. But now it’s around how do you look after your people? How do you create a great environment where they can perform, and how does it link to performance? Because, ultimately, that’s where companies want to go. They still want the organization to perform. So we’ve that’s where we spend a lot of our a lot of our work. Yeah. But the starting point is just to find out where you are on the journey.

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:49]:

Yeah. I think it’s interesting, and it goes back to the earlier point that you mentioned about the happiness index. It goes deeper than any, typical engagement survey. Index that goes deeper than any a typical engagement survey. There are the the kind of standard engagement questions, Europe based or USA based depending on on which ones that you’re familiar with. But it’s interesting that they’re not revealing the kinds of things that the happiness index is revealing.

Matt Phelan [00:30:13]:

Yeah. Yeah. And it’s it’s part of part of what you see in studies and research is because a lot of the studies and research are based on, human beings are rational. Yeah. Yeah. We don’t make the assumption that human beings are rational. We we make the assumption that being rational is part of a human being, but our emotions, our instincts, and our reflective brain, which is in the prefrontal cortex, all play a huge part. Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:30:47]:

And also they can contradict each other.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:49]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:30:49]:

Which people don’t like to admit that, but how you think about something, I’ll just I’ll let everyone think on this one. But how you think about something can be different to how you feel about something. So an example of that could be, I think I’ve got a good job. It’s got a good salary. It’s got a good location. It’s it’s a well respected industry, and people respect my job title.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:14]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:31:15]:

You can feel, at the same time, deeply unhappy.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:18]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:31:19]:

And I feel like I’m not living out my life’s purpose, and I don’t feel like that I’m acknowledged here. So that’s that can that can confuse companies because they like to think everyone’s rational.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:32]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:31:32]:

But we’re not. We’re not. And human beings and some of the biggest life decisions that we will make don’t make a rational decision. Everything from buying a car to where we work to who we marry is not a wholly rational, decision. Yeah. And work and business, we ignore that. We we ignore the fact that emotions are incredibly important, and we we block them out and pretend that they’re unprofessional.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:58]:

But there could even be some conflict there because I’m thinking I have this amazing job and other people would love this job. Why do I not feel the way I should about the job? So there’s kind of almost a conflict between what I think I should feel about my job and how I actually feel about my job.

Matt Phelan [00:32:17]:

100%. And that is that is why we say think of your emotions as data points. That is is your body, is your soul is is talking to you. Think about the accountant that went to university whose parents are really proud they’re an accountant. You’ve got a good salary, which means they’ve got the best department in town. But actually, they really enjoy art, and that’s what they wanna be doing. Like, these conflicts sit there all the time. Where where I think smart businesses work this out so one of the main reasons in our data set because we we we track the whole employee experience.

Matt Phelan [00:32:53]:

So we, we can look at, exit data. People generally are leaving where they don’t feel they’re progressing.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:02]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:33:03]:

But that’s where I think really great companies do the work, which is progression plans for everyone and understand where they need to go. Yeah. A lot of companies resist that because they go, oh, well, it’s like a pyramid here. There’s only so many senior roles you can move to. Most employees, when you look at the data, they’re not move they’re not they don’t have an issue with wage and seniority levels.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:24]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:33:24]:

They’re our brains are always looking for growth opportunities to learn.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:27]:

For challenge. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:33:30]:

All those things, and companies are really bad at helping employees navigate. I I I always say to Gemma, our, chief people officer, if we can’t if we can’t show someone here their progression plan, it’s a lack of creativity on our side.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:48]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:33:48]:

Because we’re a fast growing business that’s working in, like, neuroscience data, like the cutting edge of human being, like if if we can’t find that that’s our that’s our problem. Like there’s new opportunities all the time. And and if someone can’t see it it’s because we it’s our create it’s our lack of creativity that we haven’t shown them that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:07]:

Yeah. I think I think it works both ways. So I think the organization has a responsibility to provide those opportunities and make it really clear to people how to progress. Yeah. But equally, they need to put the onus on the individual to seek out what those opportunities are, to uncover for themselves, to spark those conversations with their manager if their manager is not having those conversations. Progress. Like, I know that I’ve left several organizations because I did I didn’t see a path forward. I didn’t see

Matt Phelan [00:34:46]:

Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:47]:

An opportunity for me to progress, and I wasn’t happy. I wasn’t feeling challenged enough where I was. Yeah. And it’s it’s so I can absolutely relate to that. But now that I know what I know, it’s like how could I have carved out that opportunity for myself? How could I have sparked those conversations with my managers at the time to see what that path might actually look like in front of me?

Matt Phelan [00:35:10]:

Yep. No. I a 100% agree. And and that and that go it goes back to the point you can’t make your employees happy. It’s a two way street. Like, both sides need to do the work. But I still think the onus is on the company to make it clear Yes. That we are open to having that conversation.

Matt Phelan [00:35:24]:

Yeah. Because in some organizations, it’s not. It’s a closed down conversation

Aoife O’Brien [00:35:28]:

Yeah. Where There’s there’s certain times of the year that it happens. It’s through a competitive process. All of these kinds of things. Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:35:35]:

Yeah. Yeah. Because maybe you’re under underwriting your under it’s seen as undermining your manager, seen as being above your station, all these things. Like Yeah. You should always be open to the conversation.

Aoife O’Brien [00:35:46]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Especially for someone who wants to take that next step, who’s really keen to progress. So something like me, I’ve always been super ambitious. Yeah. Matt, I’d love to explore before we wrap things up. Like, what are some of the key things that you’re seeing in companies now that are adding to employee happiness and attracting? Are there some specific trends that you’re seeing?

Matt Phelan [00:36:09]:

I think there’s a real battle of going on in organizations at the moment. Mhmm. And the the one thing I encourage people to do if they’ve not read it or to really read it is to to reread 1984.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:24]:

Okay. Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:36:27]:

Because there is a real we’re at a crossroads with technology. Mhmm. And I think technology could, at the moment, be the thing that frees us and allows employees to be, no matter what industry you’re in, be creative. Because I don’t buy into this if you were good at art, drama, or music at school that you’re creative, and if you were good at maths, you’re not creative. Every single human being is creative in their own way, and it’s what’s gonna differentiate us from machines and robots. Mhmm. Everyone wants to to unlock that and be used for that. However, we’re in a situation where people are using technology for, for example, control, monitoring how many hours people sit at their desks, monitoring how long someone’s on a Google Teams, like monitoring keystrokes.

Matt Phelan [00:37:22]:

There’s there’s that side of it where people have this this, I think, warped view of of of what performance and productivity means. Because it in your head, like, tech desk time at desk, It doesn’t matter whether you’re at home or, or or in an office. Let’s not get into that debate. But that is I’ve not seen any research that shows that that is what, leads to productivity, creativity, and and and the right outputs. So

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:52]:

Yeah. And that’s a whole other podcast episode as well.

Matt Phelan [00:37:55]:

It’s another podcast episode. But to to answer your question, I think the world has moved on. You can’t change the fact the world has moved on. But what’s detracting from happiness at the moment, some companies are really holding on to that control.

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:09]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:38:11]:

Whereas the organizations that are going, you know what? The world has changed. Let’s let’s create freedom here. Let’s unlock the potential of our employees. They are reaping the rewards because at the end of the day, business is a talent game. If you’ve got the best talent on your team, 9 times out of 10, you’re going to win. And the best talent is going to be able able to choose. So where do you think the best talent is going to choose to be? The place that controls them, and tracks their mouse strokes

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:47]:

Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:38:47]:

Or the company that is trying to understand their needs and what they need to be motivated at work. Like, I don’t even need to answer that question for your your listeners. So I think what’s detracting is companies are trying to hold on to the past, and I and I can also understand that on an intellectual level. It comes from a place of fear where people are under pressure, they go back to what they know best. If your experience has been leading that way, that’s what you’ll lean on. But there’s a whole group of new leaders, new managers that are looking at the world differently, and they are reaping the rewards of the talent coming their way. So I think Darwin will will play a role in this. I think the companies that don’t get it will slowly die out die out of time, die out over time.

Matt Phelan [00:39:34]:

Unfortunately, the the collateral damage of that is all our friends and family that we all know that are working in those organizations that it’s not great. So I think, ultimately, to answer your question, the companies that are looking to the future and thinking how do I unlock the potential of my employees are doing great work. And I would say to my friends, go and look at our client list. That’s the place to go and apply for a job. Because people were like, because everyone because because of that company name, everyone always, I’d love to come work work at the Happiness Index. But I remind them that not everyone at the Happiness Index is happy, including myself. Like, it’s a it we’re all a work in progress. Yeah.

Matt Phelan [00:40:11]:

But I say, you know what? We can’t employ everyone, but, go and look at our client list because, generally, people won’t be listening to this podcast or working with the happiness Syndics or working with you. If they don’t care, then we our brands filter them out. They they they’re just we’re we’re fluffy hippies, so they don’t even come to this podcast. So you don’t even need to worry about offending them.

Aoife O’Brien [00:40:31]:

Exactly. Exactly.

Matt Phelan [00:40:33]:

So, yeah, I would say, like, it’s just it’s just a brilliant opportunity to attract the best people and win over your competition right now. It’s the best opportunity anyone’s gonna have over the next few years to build build that culture that people wanna be in.

Aoife O’Brien [00:40:45]:

Yeah. Brilliant. Love that. And, Matt, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean

Matt Phelan [00:40:54]:

to you? To me, it is being a good dad and being a good CEO. I wouldn’t want either to be out of kilter. Like, by far important to me. My career, is important to me. Doing good work and learning is important to me. Being a dad is my number one priority. So I don’t want it to get out of kilts. I know there’s lots of debates around what what’s balanced, what’s not.

Matt Phelan [00:41:19]:

For me, the they’re my 2 jobs, and I want to do them. I I want them both to be able to work together Yeah. But not, not, feel like I’m sacrificing in every area. So Yeah. For me, if I if I can do that, I’ll I feel I will feel successful. That’s why.

Aoife O’Brien [00:41:36]:

So not at odds with each other, more integration. And Yeah. I mean, this term balance, everyone uses that. It’s so common. But on the podcast, I’ve talked about other words that we can use instead, like whether it’s integration or blend, yeah, harmony, all of these things rather than Harmony. Trying to get that sense of balance is yeah. Yeah. It’s really tough.

Matt Phelan [00:41:58]:

I think harmony is probably the best word that describes what I feel.

Aoife O’Brien [00:42:02]:

Yeah. Brilliant. And if people want to find out more about the happiness index, if they want to find out about more about you, want to reach out and connect with you, what’s the best place that they can do that?

Matt Phelan [00:42:12]:

Yeah. So if you’re looking to speak to me, book me for a speaker or or podcast or whatever, get just connect with me on LinkedIn. If you’re looking to get a demo, go to the happiness index.com, and and and the team will help. But feel free to send me messages, questions peep people do every day, and I I I get I try and get back to every single person that’s not a cold sales message.

Aoife O’Brien [00:42:36]:

Brilliant. And I know you have a podcast as well if you wanna give a shout out to your podcast. So if people are listening to this podcast, they might enjoy your run of

Matt Phelan [00:42:42]:

Yeah. So, yeah, that’s a good point. We should probably got a good crossover, which we’re we’re at I’m about to have a guest on that your listeners might know. I might be speaking to him right now, but, if you head over to Happiness in Humans, you know, it’s a mix of, like, researchers, data people, and and and our customers. But, yeah, come and have a come and have a listen. I I think if you enjoy this podcast, you’ll enjoy that one.

Aoife O’Brien [00:43:08]:

Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today, Pat. Really, really enjoyed this conversation. Loads of nuggets, loads of practical things that I think people can start doing straight away. I particularly liked the, you know, name those top drivers and whether or not they’re being realized, I suppose, at the moment. And people can just do that with a paper and pen, as you said. So really appreciate your time today.

Matt Phelan [00:43:30]:

Thank you. Thanks for having me on, and and keep up all that work that you’re doing. It’s it’s it’s really helping the the wider I don’t like calling it an industry, but, like, the wider movement,

Aoife O’Brien [00:43:39]:

to Movement, I think, is a good word. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Yeah. Thank you so much.

Matt Phelan [00:43:44]:

Thank you.