256: Improve Workplace Relationships and Team Dynamics with Jason P Carroll

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:02]:

Jason, you’re so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I know we’ve been talking for a long time about recording this episode, so it’s great to finally have you here. You’re very, very welcome to the show. A quick intro about you. So a little birdie tells me that you have the values of curiosity and generosity, and I think maybe that’s one of the things that drew us to each other. I am a huge fan of both of those values as well. They really come through, I think, in the work that I do. So you’re the founder of ActiveIndex.

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:33]:

I’m the CEO there. You are a self described tech nerd with a a huge interest in human dynamics. And today, we’re really gonna focus on this idea of psychometrics and how we can use psychometrics to improve our relationships at work. Do you wanna talk to me a little bit about your journey and how you got into doing that? Because I know you have an interesting story to tell.

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:58]:

No. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me on, by the way. And, yeah, psychometrics is a word that not everybody knows. So let’s just, you know, call it, personality test on steroids. Right? But it it’s not personality, but we can call it that. It it really, what we’re measuring is hardwiring. Like, what are the drives, the innate, like, instinct and volition that’s driving our needs and our behaviors? And I got, probably more than mildly obsessed with this concept back in, I guess, 02/2017.

Jason P Carroll [00:01:27]:

I was running a company called champion national security, totally outside the realm of my normal tech industry world. This was security guarding. So think physical security officers, standing post, gun at the hip, that kind of a thing. Very different industry. And we ended up doing some really cool things and disrupting an industry that, it was pretty stagnant. And this company that I joined had been stagnant for over a decade. It was 33 years old. And all of a sudden, we started growing like wildfire as we started disrupting.

Jason P Carroll [00:02:00]:

It was really exciting, but had all kinds of challenges. I had to put the right people in the right seats. That was the you know, as we were growing, I had to hire new people. That was a huge pain point because I’m terrible at hiring, and learned that I think pretty much everyone is, and and made some really constant mistakes. But I also had, inherited a senior leadership team and an executive leadership team that, while they had their strengths and I had mine, we were butting heads like crazy. We were, like, trying to do all of this innovation and growth and disruption, but we were hitting walls mostly each other. And it was preventing us from from growing. And and also the ripple effect of us butting heads was, like, this kind of toxicity that was permeating the culture.

Jason P Carroll [00:02:48]:

And it was really the culture that turned things around in the first place. So, like, we made all this progress, and then we started taking massive steps backward, from that culture progress. And so psychometrics got introduced, to me as a tool for hiring and for building better team dynamics. And the first big lever for me was had nothing to do with anyone else other than me. It was this massive, profound self awareness awakening where I started seeing what was driving my own behaviors and realizing that the impact of these behaviors was not matching my intentions. And so in a lot of ways, I was the cause of the conflict and the bad team dynamics. And even though we had all this great growth that was happening at Champion, you know, some of it might have been because of me, but some of it was in spite of me. And, you know, that wasn’t the leader I wanted to be.

Jason P Carroll [00:03:49]:

Right? I wanted to self improve. And as I started doing that and getting that self awareness, I started realizing that things that are driving me aren’t the same things driving other people. In fact, sometimes they’re literal opposite drivers, and that’s why we’re butting heads. Yeah. And and so diving into that human psychology, the behavioral psychology of it all, I like I said, I got more than mildly obsessed and and started just honing in on what does this mean for me and my fellow leaders and my family and all all of that stuff. So that was a big journey that started 02/2016 or ’17 and obviously continues today. I was so obsessed that after selling that company, I started my own company, contracted psychologists and psychometricians and all of that all that and built a whole company around it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:36]:

Wow. Amazing. Are you open to sharing the specifics of what you learned about yourself and the difference that that made and and maybe the specifics around why you were butting heads with the other leaders.

Jason P Carroll [00:04:50]:

Yeah. So one of the, kind of what we call cognitive psychology attributes that’s not not cognitive with the g, but c o n a t I v, cognitive. By the way, if you plug that into your notes app, it’s gonna put red squigglies underneath. It’s gonna be like, you must have met something else. Yeah. No. Yeah. I promise it’s a word.

Jason P Carroll [00:05:09]:

Look it up. It’s kind of like a hardwiring that’s been baked into us since we were kids. It’s it’s driving our needs and behaviors. Yeah. And one of them is about a need to influence or impact my surroundings. For me, that was my highest scoring, skyrocket high need is basically to be in charge, to be the one who puts my fingerprint on ideas, to be making a big impact, to be taking all kinds of initiative, my foot on the gas. And that was causing me to, you know, have some strengths. Right? Like natural leadership, being very directive and assertive, being able to be a decisive decision maker, being big picture, and tolerant of risk.

Jason P Carroll [00:05:58]:

So I have a really high risk appetite. But the literal opposite driver was taking place in my COO, like, the guy that had been running the company for many, many years before I was ever on the scene. His driver was the opposite of needing to impact. It was needing to support. It was needing to keep things, flowing and operating with precision and accuracy. He was a rule follower, risk averse

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:25]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:06:26]:

In a good way. Right? In a way that protected our business from mistakes and compliance issues and, you know, from, you know, somebody with, you know, a gun going off or you know? Right? Like, this was, like, serious business. Right? And so he was looking at me like I’m this wild card, jumping out of the plane with no parachute on. I’m looking at him like he is a stick in the mud and doesn’t want everyone to do anything different than he’s ever done it before.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:52]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:06:53]:

And we were both wrong. Right? And so just because we were approaching everything with our own set of innate drives Mhmm. That were opposite of each other, we couldn’t see where the other person was coming from. Yeah. So that discovery of, oh, the reason I’m doing this is because it’s a drive. It’s built into me, and there’s no escaping it. And he has an opposite drive. Like, that was just this light bulb moment of we we don’t need to butt head.

Jason P Carroll [00:07:21]:

We actually can compliment each other in some really helpful and interesting ways that ultimately are good for the business. Because if it’s just Jason in the driver’s seat and there’s not someone like Bill what’s his name? Fantastic guy. If there wasn’t a Bill, then we are jumping out of the plane and potentially, you know, have it inspected the parachute all the way. And that can cause some really big issues. And so, but also if we don’t move forward, we can’t innovate. And so we started really working well together when we started understanding what these drives were. And, I mean, it sounds simple to kind of reiterate it, but we didn’t know. We didn’t have language around it.

Jason P Carroll [00:08:01]:

We certainly hadn’t thought about measuring it in some scientific way, which is where, the psychometrics came into play.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:08]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:08:08]:

So, yeah. It was a game changer.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:11]:

Amazing. And you you mentioned earlier about hiring and, like, that most people are really bad at hiring people. Do you wanna just elaborate on that before we get into a bit more about team down team dynamics?

Jason P Carroll [00:08:28]:

Yeah. Well, one of the reasons we’re we’re not good at hiring is it it directly relates to the team dynamics, and and this idea of drivers. I so you think about, well, first of all, skills and experience is important, but it’s not even in my top 10 list of what I’m actually looking for. And yet it’s the only thing we focus on. We’re looking at resumes. And, you know, all these resumes were written by Chat GBT nowadays anyways. And then it’s some other AI that’s scanning the resume to see if they make it through the first round. So the whole thing’s broken.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:01]:

AI talking to AI.

Jason P Carroll [00:09:02]:

Yeah. It really is. Yeah. Uh-huh. But then we get to the interview. And this is where we’re supposed to be able to filter everything out. But what happens is we end up most often, we hire people that we like. And we either like them because they are similar to us, or we like them because they, come across the right way, they have the right answers, they were able to think on their feet, you know, that kind of a thing.

Jason P Carroll [00:09:25]:

Well, I’m kind of you can tell, kind of the outgoing gregarious type of personality I think on my feet. The absolute opposite of me is somebody who has to process internally. Right? Like, putting them on the spot in an interview is gonna make them feel really awkward, and they’re not gonna have a good answer. Right? And I’m not gonna necessarily like that person in that interview setting. But let’s say I’m hiring an accountant or a software developer or an engineer. That’s probably gonna be their personality. Like, the best fit for a software engineer is probably somebody whose friend is a computer, not, you know, not a person sitting across the a stranger, you know, at a at an interview table. And so if I’m if I’m trying to filter likability through a lens of, is this person warm and approachable and thinking on their feet and how does the gift of gab and can answer my questions really well, Well, I’m almost setting myself up to intentionally hire the wrong fit for that role.

Jason P Carroll [00:10:29]:

So so the psychometrics, they they look at these attributes we’re measuring, and we are able to use these attributes to create ideal target ranges of where people are gonna score. Right? Like, I’m gonna want somebody who’s that internal processor who goes to work to work and is efficient. I’m gonna want somebody who’s super buttoned up on the details, you know, accurate, thorough. They don’t miss code. You know, they don’t, skip over the QA stage of software development. Well, that’s the literal opposite of me. Right? As the risk tolerance, that kind of a thing. And so I have to be able to look at someone objectively and know they’re the right fit for the role even if I don’t necessarily like them or think that they’re the warmest, friendliest person.

Jason P Carroll [00:11:17]:

Does that track?

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:18]:

It does. Yeah. And so what someone said to me one time, and I’ve heard this repeated many times, is the idea that in an interview, you’re thinking, would I go for a beer with this person in the evening, and that’s who you want to hire? Like, there’s so much talk of this. And you’re absolutely right, Jason. Exactly. Exactly. That like, there are some people who you wouldn’t necessarily want to go for a beer with, but they’d actually be the the perfect person for the role that you’re hiring for. And, you know, this has happened to me as well when I’ve been interviewing, and they were very open and and saying, well, part of it is you have to think about would I socialise with this person.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:58]:

But, I mean, it’s great to socialise from with your colleagues, but, actually, that’s not why you’re at work, and that might not necessarily translate into into that. Now you mentioned about skills and experience not even being in your top 10. Do you wanna elaborate a little bit on that? Because that is what we tend to focus on. We tend to look at, oh, like you say, the resume and where did they work and what skills do they have and what are they gonna bring to the role. So do you wanna talk to us a little bit more about that?

Jason P Carroll [00:12:29]:

Yeah. It’s so many other things. So hardwiring, I mean, it’s what we’re talking about. Right? So the psychometrics, they play a role there. But also, like, their adaptability, their learning agility, their, values alignment, culture fit, or culture add. Here’s a big one, emotional intelligence. Yeah. EQ, soft skills, their approach to problem solving, their potential for growth, teamwork and collaboration skills, if that’s what the role calls for.

Jason P Carroll [00:12:58]:

Yeah. Diversity of thought and experience.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:02]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:13:02]:

Right? Do they have a different perspective than I have or that is gonna complement our team? And then there’s also, that’s nine. So 10. Here. Great. I see. I told you it’s top 10. Right? The tenth would be the future needs of the organization. So, like, I’m not just hiring somebody who’s gonna be successful the next, you know, two or three months.

Jason P Carroll [00:13:22]:

It’s, hopefully, somebody who’s gonna succeed for the next three, four, five years. Yeah. Which which means the needs of this role in this organization are gonna change. Is this person a good fit for all of that? Mhmm. So bam, I’m just rattle them off. Right? Skills and experience. It’s not even it hasn’t come up yet.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:40]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:13:41]:

And I’m not saying to throw it out. Right? But it’s it’s just not in my top 10.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:46]:

Yeah. It’s it’s what we’ve always looked at. It’s what we’ve always focused on. And I think it’s kind of hard to change that status quo. So coming back to this idea of the dynamics then, and I can understand the frustration of someone with your hardwiring, coming across someone with Bill’s hardwiring.

Jason P Carroll [00:14:08]:

Mhmm.

Aoife O’Brien [00:14:08]:

And I’m sure that many listeners today are thinking of a specific example, if not many examples, like I am myself, of people that you’ve come across who you just can’t get along with, that there’s just something. How do we move beyond that conflict? And and and, you know, you mentioned something earlier about wanting to grow and wanting to have to improve as a leader, want to be a more effective leader. Like, how do we Yeah. Address that from the get go when, you know, we could be in the blame. Like, oh, that’s not my fault. That’s the other person, which maybe you were like that. And, like, like, I know certainly I was. Maybe you were like that with Bill initially.

Aoife O’Brien [00:14:49]:

You were like, I my way is the right way. I can’t understand why he’s such a stick in the mud. You know? Talk talk to me about, like, what’s the first step towards acknowledging that?

Jason P Carroll [00:15:02]:

Yeah. I mean, you mentioned the growth mindset. And if somebody doesn’t have that, you’re there’s no moving forward. Mhmm. So so looking inward, do I have a a growth mindset? Am I willing to, you know, look at the negative impact of my behaviors

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:18]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:15:18]:

And, you know, move past whatever shame gremlins might, you know, be part of that. Right? So the mindset has to be there. But beyond that, understanding these drives, it comes into play actually, you know, we, we mentioned work, but, I’m gonna, I’m gonna get a little weird. I’m gonna talk like romantic relationships, because I bet you the listeners can relate to this one. One of the attributes that we would measure and talk about is sociability. And when that score is high, it’s not necessarily extroversion introversion. It’s, it’s the characteristics of someone’s approach to belonging and connection. And when that score is high, one of the characteristics is that that person is a verbal processor.

Jason P Carroll [00:15:59]:

They want to think out loud, they ideate with spoken words. The opposite of that is the internal processor, Right. They think everything in their head. And then when they finally speak, it’s the final thought. Right? Like I’m, I don’t know my final thought until I’ve said it. And so what happens when you put a high sociability and a low sociability person in a romantic relationship and conflict is at play high sociability wants to talk it out. Right? Low sociability person needs space. And now if conflict was already there, that conflict escalates because one’s looking at the other person going, oh my gosh, you’re smothering me.

Jason P Carroll [00:16:40]:

And that same person is looking at the other side of the island going, well, you’re icing me out. You’re stonewalling me, you know? And I I I point to the romantic relationship because I think we’ve all been there. The the cosmic lottery, the cosmic joke is we end up with an opposite subtract kind of a thing. But this happens at work.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:59]:

Because I can absolutely relate to this as well.

Jason P Carroll [00:17:01]:

Oh, totally. Yeah. But this happens at work too. And so if we’re aware of that occurrence, and let’s say I’m the person with high stability and I’m in conflict with my COO, a much better approach is to say, hey, man. We need to talk about this. Will you let me know when you have space? Like, just that one little shift in approach will deescalate conflict and prevent it from just blowing out of proportion. Because then, now it’s in his court. And he goes Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:17:34]:

Yeah. He he dwells on it for a little bit. Maybe he does takes notes or maybe he just cools down or comes back the next day and he’s processed it. Now he has he’s taken the space and we get together and we’re able to talk about it. And I’m not, you know, flooding him with information and catching him off guard, which is one of the things that an internal processor is worried about. They’re like, I can’t, like, I don’t think on my feet that way. Mhmm. Right? So don’t catch me off guard.

Jason P Carroll [00:17:58]:

And now we can have a much more productive conversation.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:00]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:18:01]:

And so take that concept and rinse and repeat across all of these other attributes and drives. You know, but a need for precision and accuracy and rule following is a great one.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:16]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:18:16]:

I I don’t media rules are suggestions. They’re for everybody else. But someone like Bill, rules are to be followed. And wrong hurts. Right? When something’s incorrect, like, they have, like, a visceral reaction to it. Like, I don’t get that at all. Right? When I got some

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:33]:

to that.

Jason P Carroll [00:18:34]:

Yeah. Like, I’ve got some ADHD. Precision.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:36]:

I like following processes and and all of that kind of thing. Jason, something that you brought up there that I think we need to explicitly address is this idea that you talk about the fact that you’re having conflict. Because I think when we have conflict with people, it just goes completely unacknowledged. There’s this understanding that I don’t like you and you don’t like me, but we don’t actually talk about it. So I think I love how you said you just approach the other person from your perspective and say, listen. This is as I see things, let me know when you have space to and and we need to talk about this, especially in a workplace context.

Jason P Carroll [00:19:24]:

Yeah. Yeah. I I think it’s key. I’ve I’ve learned some really cool models, over the years too for leadership and for conflict. It’s not part of the work I do, but, I’ll I’ll reference back to, like, what, you know, I’ve heard called the dialogue model, where it’s, you know, I if I’m the one kind of leading the charge, I first give you, I I inquiry. And so I give you space to share your perspective. I mirror that. Then I advocate for myself.

Jason P Carroll [00:19:51]:

Here’s my perspective. You mirror that. And we kinda create this pool of shared understanding where nobody’s trying to win, and then we figure out, okay, where’s the synergy here? Like, where how do we come out of this? But the whole approach is I’m not right. You’re not wrong. It’s not about winning. Like, the only winning is is a win win win. A win for me, a win for you, a win for the organization. Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:20:13]:

And if that’s our ultimate goal, then we’re able to come in and, you know, kind of put our own preferences aside. And and the superpower there, the the cheat code is when I’m approaching it like that, and I know that person’s innate drives and and how to build trust instead of erode it and how to, give space if space is what’s needed, that that kind of a thing.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:38]:

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And and I think, dare I say it, that a lot of people would get caught on this idea of being right or wanting to be the winner or however you want to describe it. They’re so fixated on not the relationship, but rather Yeah. Being the winner, you know, at at all costs, even cost to the company because you’re cost

Jason P Carroll [00:21:01]:

It’s built into our it’s, like, built into our nature, but it’s not it doesn’t make any sense. Right? It’s it’s our amygdala lizard brain

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:08]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:21:08]:

That that thinks that we have to win to protect ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It just hijacks us, and it thinks that I have to win because otherwise, I’m unsafe. You know? I have to Okay. Protect myself Yeah. Self preservation.

Jason P Carroll [00:21:20]:

But but I mean, think about the argument that you did win. What did that do for you?

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:26]:

Yeah. Nothing. Did you feel good for all of two minutes and then Yeah. Like, I’ve lost I’ve lost this relationship or I’ve impacted people’s perception of me at work or or whatever it might be. Jason, we we’ve kinda touched on some of these, and I’m trying to think what to call them, but, like, how we are hardwired. What are some of the other common ones that you’re seeing, and and maybe especially the ones that come into conflict?

Jason P Carroll [00:21:51]:

Yeah. So, you know, we briefly mentioned the, the precision. Like, you you said you love rules. Yeah. Me, not so much. And if we’re working together and I deliver you a final product or something, right? Like here’s, here’s the project that you asked for. Chances are. You’re gonna think it’s sloppy.

Jason P Carroll [00:22:13]:

I, I, my final product isn’t as buttoned up as you would want it to be. Okay. But the reversal is true. If you, you know, had the assignment and you turn it into me, it might be absolutely perfect. But it might’ve taken way too long. Right. I’m gonna prioritize speed over accuracy.

Aoife O’Brien [00:22:29]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:22:30]:

Versus the other way around.

Aoife O’Brien [00:22:31]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:22:32]:

We talked about influence. Do I wanna be in charge or am I more of like a, I wanna support, you know, there’s that one of those is more of like a higher ego and one is more low, and servant minded. And we talked about sociability, you know, the verbal processor, internal processor. One one of the ones that we measure, we call it consistency. And it’s not necessarily whether or not somebody can be consistent. It’s not their behaviors. It’s that drive. Like, so one is, like, the routine and predictability Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:23:02]:

Stability, steadiness. Right? Like, I wanna know what to expect. And those people are so good at getting into their flow. It takes them a little while to ramp into it, but then they’re just tunnel vision, and they’re focused. But, you know, if they’re on step three, then step four is next. And if, you know, Jason comes around and is like, hey. Let’s work on step h. You know, like, dude, h is not even on my list.

Jason P Carroll [00:23:24]:

What are you doing to me? Right? So, you know, they can kinda get knocked off course when they have to, shift gears really quickly. The lower consistency people are driven by the opposite of all that. So we’re driven by variety and novelty and change, and and, you know, even chaos sometimes. And, you know, makes us really adaptable and quick and, you know, speedy, etcetera, high urgency. But if everything’s urgent, then nothing ever gets done. You know? If sometimes I’ll create chaos just for the sake of creating chaos. You know? Change for the sake of change, and that’s Yeah. Not not great.

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:00]:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s a driver. That’s kind of like, yeah, it’s

Jason P Carroll [00:24:02]:

a driver. I want something new and shiny and different.

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:06]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:24:07]:

And then, and then we get into some that are like emotional, social, cognitive styles, you know, not necessarily emotional intelligence. Right? Because that’s that’s a skill that anybody can learn, EQ. But what’s that natural relationship to emotions? You know, do they take up a ton of space and take a long time to process? Or is it more like, oh, there’s emotional compartmentalize it in a healthy way and move forward and deal with it later and process it quickly? So that that’s an example of of another driver. And there’s more. But, you know, we would geek out forever if we if we deep dove deep.

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:43]:

Yeah. If we went if we went through absolutely all of them. I think it’s so interesting, like, especially what you were saying about this. And I think I would describe it as someone who likes routine and plan in advance versus someone who is a bit more spontaneous. Like

Jason P Carroll [00:24:59]:

Mhmm.

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:59]:

That can be really frustrating. I I’m a planner. I like to know when things are happening. I like to know where we’re going. So if we’re going just on a journey or if we’re starting a project and there’s no kind of clear outline of what we’re gonna be doing. Or if Jason comes in and says, we’re gonna start on step h now, and I’m like, hey. That’s not even in my list. What are you talking about? That really, really frustrates me.

Aoife O’Brien [00:25:22]:

So I think it’s, you know, it’s important to understand that these are things that could cause conflict with people. Mhmm. Tell me about the kind of evolution of, like, okay, so I’m just really frustrated with this other person at work. How do we how do we move on from that? How do we how do we work together, I think, is is where I’m trying to get to. So, like, having the understanding of the perspective that the other person has, how do we come together and make the most of the strengths, the unique strengths that we each bring and the complementary strengths that we bring?

Jason P Carroll [00:26:00]:

Yeah. That is the key to it. I think context dictates how you do that and, because that’s really different, depending on your context. Like, for for Bill and I, we were able to talk about these strengths and the differences and where we would shine and where we would, you know, sabotage and create chaos. And so for us, it was actually mutually deciding what lane we were gonna stay in. You know? And the reason I say it’s context dependent is if you you say to your colleagues, you stay in your lane, I’ll stay in mine, that cannot necessarily come across, so well sometimes. But for us, it was actually brilliant. You know, it was like, hey.

Jason P Carroll [00:26:39]:

Here’s here are the things that really need a guardian and a and a protector of compliance and process and structure and operational excellence. Here are the aspects of the business that require innovative thinking and and risk taking, and you’re pushing the needle a bit. And and so pushing the envelope, moving the needle, whatever. Mix up my idioms. It’s fine. And so we we were able to say, alright. Well, we’re obviously gonna have a hand in the other’s pot, but we’re gonna stay out of that lane as much as we can. And and in that way, we can actually leverage each other’s strengths.

Jason P Carroll [00:27:22]:

So as I’m innovating in this company, a lot of that might be let’s you know, it was technology, for instance. Like, we had to bring in, better workflows, better technology. Well, that obviously impacted operations because our employees had to learn it and they had to implement it and everything else. So I knew where to stop in my journey and hand the things off to him. Yeah. Right? So, like, here’s the idea, including him, including the rest of the executive leadership team. So we’re we’re all in on the idea, but I really, like, I had my foot on the gas. I was the one who led the charge, But now there’s a handoff that has to take place.

Jason P Carroll [00:28:02]:

Yeah. Because if I’m the one that goes and executes on it, it’s gonna be too fast. It’s gonna be sloppy. It’s gonna disrupt people’s flow. It’s not gonna have all the tools and resources necessary for people to pick up on it. Now is it gonna happen slower than I wish it would? Yep. But I just had to accept that. Right? That’s part of the process.

Jason P Carroll [00:28:18]:

You know, we we were 800 employees when I joined and 2,500 when we sold. And and so when you’re talking that big of growth, you can’t just you’re not a startup. You can’t just go in and, like, here’s the new technology. Everybody use it. Mhmm. Right? So I had to accept where if it was my driver that, you know, took it all the way to the finish line, it would actually really piss a lot of people off Yeah. And would harm the organization. So it was like, where where do I start? Where do I hand off? He would do the same thing.

Jason P Carroll [00:28:53]:

I hope that kinda answers the question. Yeah. But like I said, but that’s that was our context.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:58]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think really understanding what those unique strengths are. And I’d love to dive into this idea further because we did talk about the overutilization. So you have this driver, but actually you’re so fixated on it that it’s this at all cost. Do you wanna maybe pick one of the drivers and and share an example of where that might be showing up for people or where where it can be overused?

Jason P Carroll [00:29:25]:

Oh, man. Yeah. So so think of your strengths and your drivers not as like an on off switch, but like a like a volume knob. Right? So it, like, dials up, it dials back. You know, no reason to crank it to 11 all the time. So sociability is a great one. Right? When that strength is dialed perfectly, it’s that person is warm. They’re they’re people glue.

Jason P Carroll [00:29:45]:

They’re amazing for culture. They create the sense of belonging and everything else like that. But when that gets cranked too high, where are my people pleasers at? Right? Like, I bet there I bet there are some tuned in right now. Now they get walked on. Like, who who does that sabotage? It sabotages themselves Yeah. Because they’re just overly pleasing instead of serving. Right. My influence natural leader.

Jason P Carroll [00:30:12]:

Awesome. Like take charge, be directive, get people behind me, but crank that knob too high. And now I’m a controller

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:20]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:30:20]:

Right now, now I’m instead of serving, yeah, micromanaging, I’m taking back some of the things that I delegated. Yeah. Yeah. Because I just it’s better if I do it myself. Right. So I’m disempowering my team.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:31]:

A lot of people can relate to that. Yeah. It’s faster if I just do this myself.

Jason P Carroll [00:30:36]:

Right. Right. But that takes their power away. Yeah. It it makes them feel like their ideas and contributions aren’t aren’t valued.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:43]:

Totally.

Jason P Carroll [00:30:44]:

And I’m I’m a % guilty of that in leadership.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:47]:

Time in the long run as well. So rather than educating someone on what to do, like, investing the time upfront actually saves time further down the road.

Jason P Carroll [00:30:55]:

Yeah. Yeah. So it’s a craft. It’s like, what what does the impact of this strength when it’s dialed in well and it’s serving? And what is the impact when it’s sabotaging? And and figuring out how to hone that craft and perfect it. You know, it’s like, so I I was I led a band for many years, and and I had a guitarist who would rotate through. And that dude’s I mean, that amp on his guitar amp had a knob for volume, but he just didn’t know where it was. Right. And it just caught and I’m just like, dude, you’re you’re skilled, but you have no dynamics.

Jason P Carroll [00:31:29]:

You know? And it it’s the same way. Right? We we need that finesse. We need that dynamics to take place because if if your volume’s cranked all the way up, like, your ears are bleeding and you’re you’re overwhelming everything and everyone around you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:43]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I suppose I’m thinking now, how do we recognize these drivers or these behaviors in ourselves?

Jason P Carroll [00:31:52]:

Mhmm.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:52]:

Or is it a case that someone needs to pull us aside and say you’re getting trampled on because you’re you’re delivering too much. You’re you’re plea you’re you’re not saying no. You’re you’re or, you’ve stepped into micromanager mode or you’re too controlling or whatever. Like, is it up to us to recognize that, do you think, or are other people gonna call it out for us if we’re in I suppose this depends on on the environment that you’re in, if you’re in a psychologically safe environment.

Jason P Carroll [00:32:18]:

Yeah. For sure. The psychological safety comes into play. It’s hard for me to answer that because I’ve, you know, now for years been doing this assessment. Right? And so my answer is do the assessments. So you’re gonna, like, find the right one for you or for your organization and use that because Yeah. It gives you common language that now everyone has the same common language. And it’s really, really powerful.

Jason P Carroll [00:32:45]:

And, you know, I say that because I’m biased, but I also think back to before I had my own common language. I thought I was self aware, but really all I had was data. You know, like, oh, I steamrolled meetings. Okay. So what? Put it in a spreadsheet. That doesn’t help anyone.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:01]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:33:01]:

I I had to I had to understand the impact of that, and then I had to understand what was driving that behavior so I could pick better behaviors to fill that drive.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:11]:

Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:33:11]:

And I don’t know that I would have gotten there, on my own, without for me, the catalyst was a a psychometric. The next catalyst was getting to meet, Brene Brown and got trained by her. That was that was pretty fantastic. I can’t really recommend that to everyone though. Like, everyone go, go meet Brene Brown and go, you know, get trained by her. Yeah. Wouldn’t that be nice?

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:33]:

Amazing. Amazing. I love the idea of it’s it’s not just like, sorry. From what you were saying, you received this feedback saying you steamrolled meetings, which is not very helpful. It’s like, okay. So what do I do with that information? And and then taking the step back to understand, well, what’s what’s the key driver here, and how do I use that driver in a different way and pick better behaviors to satisfy that driver?

Jason P Carroll [00:34:01]:

It’s actually really simple. It’s not easy. Right? Those are different, but it is pretty simple. Like Yeah. Is steamrolling and meeting the only way to fill my influence drive? Mhmm. Like, of course not. Right? It sounds dumb to say it out loud, but I I hadn’t thought that way. When I knew that driver was at play, I thought, okay.

Jason P Carroll [00:34:22]:

Well, let me turn that volume down knob down a little bit and still influence and impact my surroundings, but do so in a way that’s more about the greater good. Like, let me let me be a leader who creates a culture and an executive team that’s firing on all cylinders and getting all the best ideas on the table, not just Jason’s that he steamrolled with. Right? And so now the impact of the behavior is far greater on the people, on the organization, and I’m actually still filling that driver of influence in a much healthier way just with a different behavior. So I did have to turn the knob down a little bit, but I also had I picked a different behavior. One that’s more about, you know, winning a, the the game of creating a good team Yeah. Versus, you know, winning a meeting because I had the best idea.

Aoife O’Brien [00:35:13]:

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I’m sure there’s so many people who can relate to all of these different concepts and see those behaviors in themselves or see where they might be having a conflict with someone and being able to identify, like, what is it actually that’s going on here and and maybe with an open mind, trying to understand the other person’s perspectives. Because I think often we’re so caught up in our own perspective that it’s really hard to see where the other person is coming from.

Jason P Carroll [00:35:43]:

The per perspective taking is probably the first and foremost key to building emotional intelligence. It and and, actually, like, having this common language of drivers is really helpful because whether I get it or not, I at least have data telling me that this person’s perspective is the literal opposite of mine, you know, in terms of what’s driving them. And so, like, trying to put myself in their shoes, like, okay. If I was the person who loved rules and structure and predictability, how would I approach this? Or how would I come across to myself? Oh, man. I I get it. Right? Now I’m I’m in their shoes, and, you know, that that makes it a whole lot easier. I mean, you’re right. Like, the perspective taking is is massive.

Jason P Carroll [00:36:35]:

Because now instead of getting angry or not understanding or just, you you know, kinda throwing my hands up and giving up on someone, it’s like, no. That that person just has something else going on. You know, we’re talking about hardwiring, and that’s a piece of it. Maybe they have just a different environment, different context. They grew up different way. They had a bad weekend. Or sometimes that’s all it was. Yeah.

Jason P Carroll [00:36:56]:

They didn’t sleep well. You know, somebody’s perspective, is gonna be different than ours. And understanding it not only lowers that chance of conflict, it also, like, enriches our own lives. Being able to see the beauty of how other people think and how they’re driven and how they see the world and experience everything around us, that’s my opinion, at least, is that Yeah. That, you know, things are much richer.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:20]:

All the same. That, like, that’s the riches of life, isn’t it? That if we were all the same, then we may as well just be robots, and it’s it’s Yeah. That’s what brings the the rich tapestry, I think. Jason, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Jason P Carroll [00:37:39]:

That’s a great question. Being happier at work, I mean, especially in this context, I think is recognizing your own strengths and the strengths of others, how they differ, and and then thinking about that volume knob. You know, where how much do I dial it up? When do I need to dial it back? When do I hand things off and leverage someone else’s strengths and empower them? And and all of that comes back to that very last thing we talked about, which is perspective taking. Let me just have a deeper understanding of myself and others, and use that information to heighten my own self awareness, my perspective. And, and, yeah, that that I think that’s that’s a huge key.

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:23]:

Brilliant. For anyone who wants to connect with you, they can find you on your website, activeindex.com. Presumably, they can find you, on LinkedIn if they want to reach out and ask any further questions. Jason, p, Carol. And, of course, I’ll put the links to both of those in the show notes. Anything else that you’d like to share, Jason, before we wrap things up?

Jason P Carroll [00:38:44]:

I don’t think so. I appreciate you having me on.

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:47]:

Thanks. Really, really enjoyed this conversation.

Jason P Carroll [00:38:50]:

Yeah. Me too.