258: How to be more resilient with MH Pelletier

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:02]:

Marie Helene, you’re so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I’m so thrilled to have you here because I know this has been on the cards for a while. So I would love to know a little bit more about your background. Your your area of expertise is resilience. I I just love to know, like, how did you get into that? What what is that journey that you took to get you there?

Marie Helene [00:00:25]:

Yes. Yes. And first, thank you so much for having me. I have been looking forward to this conversation, Aoife, for a while. So thrilled to be here. Background. So first did my studies in psychology, then ended up doing research in this is now many years ago, but in telehealth. Oh, can we do therapy via video conferencing? Oh, big deal.

Marie Helene [00:00:49]:

And at the time, it was actually a very pre embryonic pioneer type type thing, but it also required a lot of management because of this, managing the technology, the cost associated with it, lots of things. That then sparked my interest in management, so then continued my my, training, with, business training, that MBA thing. After that, I worked in workplace mental health and mostly in employee and family assistance program, but also in other areas as well. Loved all this. And and but with this combined background, ended up working in management roles, which is, what I was very interested in, and progressed from very junior leadership roles, like managing a call center, which is like entering a fire every day to, you know, mid manager where you have the pressure for both sides and then, more senior leadership roles in this industry and others, including insurance and other governance roles. And so in the past seven years, I’ve been on my own doing mostly keynote speaking, executive coaching, and I still have a practice, as a psychologist as well, an author, I guess. And that’s the other thing.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:00]:

Exactly. The most recent edition. Yes. And why the fascination specifically with resilience? Like, is that something that you saw coming up again? It was just something that you had a specific experience with? I’d love to dig a bit deeper into that.

Marie Helene [00:02:14]:

Yes. It came from so many directions. I it only became clear at some point, but when I then looked back, I was like, oh, yeah. It was in the works.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:22]:

We can connect the dots, I think, by looking backwards. Isn’t that what Steve Jobs said? Yeah. Yeah.

Marie Helene [00:02:27]:

Absolutely can. So some of the pieces that connected with it, in the moment, I guess, when I first when I got to okay. This this is a a key area I want to focus on and bring to even more people. Because I had this combination of psychology and business, I ended up working a lot with people who were in leadership roles because they valued having this combined, background and experience. So these individuals were often, highly capable, resourceful, doing, you know, things in a very efficient, successful way a lot of the time and feeling that pressure and being used to, people seeing them as the rock and them seeing themselves as the rock. So it was not a group that I could speak to and bring up, say, their mental health, which, yes, it’s a good topic. They were not open to it. If I brought instead the door of Resilience, where we’re going through adversity, learning from it, coming out even stronger, that was speaking their language.

Marie Helene [00:03:34]:

And, and also was very relevant, given the types of challenges and the context that, they’re in. And so that’s where that that seemed to really work well for people I was working with and, and just from my area of interest. But then it also connected from early days in employee and family assistance program, which is a lot about, resilience as well. And my interest in in general, being proactive, in dealing with any challenges we have. So we’ve connected in a number of ways.

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:05]:

Yeah. I think it’s really interesting that distinction between let’s talk about your mental health versus let’s talk about resilience where you’re you could be dealing with exactly the same thing, exactly the same symptoms, probably very similar solutions as well, but it’s the tweak in language between speaking about mental health versus resilience. Is that kinda something that that you noticed yourself?

Marie Helene [00:04:32]:

There are many I mean, of course, resilience is part of our overall mental health. There are ranges, of the mental health continuum where we are in a different place than building resilience, for example. So that that exists and that’s there. And if we’re looking at, people who are well functioning, generally dealing with things in a way that’s working, that’s healthy, that they’re contributing and all this, and dealing with the daily stressors, both the acute and the chronic ones, then resilience really resonates. But, of course, as yeah. As we build resilience, we are building our mental health, and it’s also very relational. We’re helping build the resilience and mental health of others around us.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:15]:

Brilliant. I I wanna throw a little slice spanner in the works, and I would just love to get your perspective on it. I wanna dig into it before we go on to talk in a little bit more detail about what resilience actually is and how we can build it and, you know, how we can utilize it. What I want to ask about is this idea that organizations sometimes use this as a strategy. So, they they sort of say, this is what I’m seeing out there is they say that employees need to be more resilient rather than taking responsibility themselves as leaders to reduce workloads and to focus on well-being and things like that. So the kind of using the employees and maybe victim blaming saying, do you it’s your fault. You need to be more resilient, and let’s bring in someone and let’s talk about resilience. Do you see that kind of thing happening? Are they kind of, two sides of the same coin, so to speak? Can we unpick that a little bit before we go on to talk about resilience in a bit more detail?

Marie Helene [00:06:23]:

Well, I think you are talking about resilience in more detail going in with this most important question, really. It is, you know, it is one of the key questions we want to make sure we address when we start this conversation. And, you know, am I seeing it? I’m seeing it differently in different industries, in different countries, in different places that companies are on their journey towards incorporating a broader perspective on the health of their overall employees. So some organizations will be earlier in their in their journeys, and we all need to start somewhere. It’s just like when we start any new sport, we will not usually be fantastic and incorporating all the things. Right? When we’re starting a new sport, we’re starting to run. Oh, we may get injured. Oh, we may not have the right shoes for our, you know, for our particular shape.

Marie Helene [00:07:20]:

You know? All these things. But I would say, you know what? Even if it’s not perfect, let’s start. So we may sometimes start at a place where we’re thinking, oh, well, if resilience is individual, let’s help the individual employees be even more resilient. Okay. That’s a place to start. Is this where we wanna be? No. It isn’t because resilience in in the work context is this is a system. And in the system, we have individuals, teams, and organization.

Marie Helene [00:07:50]:

So we cannot look at, actually where we’re going. We’re not looking at individual resilience only. That would be a mistake. We don’t want to only look at team resilience or only look at organizational resilience either because we would be missing a place where we as individuals have agency, and we want to use that too. So I could go on and on about this. It’s a very important question. But as a start, yes, we do not want to say that resilience at work only resides with the individual. Let’s make them more resilient than we’ll be there.

Marie Helene [00:08:27]:

It would be, not a good investment, because if we do this, it’s almost like if we did, say, water a plant, but but, it’s going right through the soil, and so it’s it’s not going in the right direction. There are many other variables, and we want to take them into consideration. Mhmm. And but not only that. The challenge also if, we stay there, too long is in my analogy of, you know, doing a sport with the wrong shoes, you’re gonna hurt yourself. So here, if you stay there too long, only putting individual, resilience on the individual, you can send the message that, you have zero responsibility in it, that it is all in their hands. And that if they are not being resilient or suffering, it reflects the defect or a weakness, in them. And that is so not a helpful message, not the message that organizations wanted to send, and, absolutely not helpful.

Marie Helene [00:09:27]:

So is that a place to start? Sure. Do we wanna stay there? Absolutely not. This is just that number one in this process where we’re going is this is a system. We want to be strategic about it in all the parts of the system.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:42]:

Brilliant. I I love that and I I love the analogy that you’ve used about the plant as well because I’ve, you know, and I’m I’m thinking back. I I don’t know who said this. It might have been Adam Grant. He talks about when you’re watering a plant or when when a plant dies, I think is what he says. When a plant dies, we don’t say the plant should have learned how to cope without water or should have learned how to cope without soil or whatever it might be. We blame the environment that it was in. It wasn’t in the right environment, and so it’s all about that environment.

Aoife O’Brien [00:10:16]:

So I love that the analogy of the plant and the sport shoes, like, it it’s all of these little pieces come together to build up resilience in ourselves, which can be a personal thing, but actually we’re part of a system as well, and it also needs to be thought about in a systemic way. Yes. The only

Marie Helene [00:10:32]:

thing I would say is here, we do actually have more agency than a plant. The plant is, in fact, you know, a bit more just the recipient of

Aoife O’Brien [00:10:41]:

all these

Marie Helene [00:10:42]:

Okay. External factors, which is, and I think it’s a very strong image, because sometimes we don’t think about these other external factors. So it actually sort of, is a strong image to say, oh, wait a second. Yeah. We absolutely need to think about these external variables, %. The only thing I’m gonna say is, yeah, we’ve got more, you know, sort of low.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:03]:

I think Yeah. I think that’s such a valid point because maybe we think we’re plants, and we can’t ask for more sunshine or more water or better soil or fertilization or whatever it might be. We think that we don’t have any control over what’s going on and the environment around us, and we blame and we we play the victim, all of these kinds of things, but actually we do. We can step up and say this is not working for me. How can I get support? What do I need?

Marie Helene [00:11:32]:

That’s right. Yeah. You can events. Express your needs, say these things, build your own resilience outside that will increase your baseline, which then makes it easier to speak and deal with the challenges.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:43]:

Yeah.

Marie Helene [00:11:44]:

There there there’s many things, including, and I love that you brought that up, walking.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:49]:

Love it. Love it. Right?

Marie Helene [00:11:51]:

Sometimes that is part of the solution. Resil Resilience is not about persisting at

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:56]:

all costs. Yeah. Yeah. And I I’ve done that as well, you know, I’ve I’ve left situations where it wasn’t working for me and I just felt like I had to get out. So, yeah, I definitely did that myself. My again, another kind of personal opinion or observation about resilience is that we often build better resilience when we go through hardships. When something bad has happened, we realize just how strong we are. I’d love to to talk about that before we go on to talk about more the systemic nature.

Aoife O’Brien [00:12:33]:

Is that something that you’ve seen as well that kind of either we realize how strong we are or it’s a great way to build Resilience when we go through hard things.

Marie Helene [00:12:45]:

Yes. Yes. I think, there’s there’s a few pieces that are very important. That’s a great, observation as well. So, yes, like anything, again, we could use a sport analogy when we have more practice, more exposure. Right? It it generates opportunities for us to learn, grow, yeah, in parts, see what we’re made of at times. Yes. It could it could do that.

Marie Helene [00:13:10]:

Now there’s also a point at which yeah. Do we need that many hardships to get stronger? Not necessarily. There are ways to build resilience that is not only by having exposure to even more hardships. For example.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:24]:

I think people will be happy happy to hear that.

Marie Helene [00:13:27]:

Right? No. That being said, when we’re thinking about helping the children around us build their resilience, it is a bit of an important aspect because sometimes as especially as, say, parents, like the person or guardian, caregiver, you know, the person that’s very close to the child, we sometimes would sort of love to protect them from any of the challenges or difficulties. And sometimes the reflex is to remove the painful moment or these kinds of things. And in fact, assuming that it’s okay for the child to handle it, of course, we’re there to protect a certain degree of hardship, of course, but leaving some of that for them to feel and learn from is important. That connects a bit with this part of your question. What we also want to keep an eye on, back to being exposed to hardships and that kind of thing, is that we wanna be sensitive to to the the hero narrative that sometimes we hear, that we even see in movies, that we’ve heard for years, we’ve seen in movies for years. You know, the traditional. The person is going through a terrible time and on their own get out of all this and succeed in the end.

Marie Helene [00:14:44]:

That’s a it has gotten to us a bit. And the unfortunate piece with this is that resilience is not an individual sport. It’s very relational. It’s in part structural. So there are these factors around us that allow us to emerge even stronger. So if we’re going to think about, yes, they’re going through hardships, let’s make sure as we learn from these moments where we’ve gone through hardships, that, yeah, we identify some of the things we did that contributed to, getting even more resilience out of this and, keeping that with us moving forward. And let’s make sure we acknowledge and see the external factors that were there, the people that were there, and how can we be there also for people? How are we really even right now there for for other people as well so that we keep this aspect in mind? Because just the thinking it was just me on my own and I made it alone may not cover the full story.

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:48]:

Yeah. It’s so funny because I can absolutely relate to that both from watching movies, but also in my own life. And somewhere along the way I learned to be hyper independent and I don’t need anyone and I don’t need support and it’s hard to ask for help and it’s hard to then receive help even if people ask you’re like no, no, I can do this on my own, I don’t need anyone’s help. But I think that when you we have that narrative and when we live that experience and I think it’s it makes it harder to make those connections that can build that resilience, that relational resilience that we that we’re looking for. So I think that’s such an interesting point. I wanted to come back to what you said about what I heard about like it’s like protecting kids with cotton wool basically by not exposing them to anything bad that could happen and relate it back to the workplace where sometimes we protect people from making mistakes and sometimes people need to learn their own mistakes, they need to make those mistakes so that they know not to make those mistakes again so that they know what it feels like when things don’t go 100% to plan or whatever it might be that there’s there’s great learning in that as well.

Marie Helene [00:17:01]:

Yes. In and I love that you made that connection because I’m actually hearing this from employers that they’re seeing sometimes the newer hires, fabulous young hires that just, you know, early career and all this, and they’re brilliant, doing great and all this. And then they make a mistake and they crumble.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:22]:

Yeah.

Marie Helene [00:17:22]:

Because there has been such a degree of protection in their history so far from parents, but not just parents. Things that they’re exposed to, their their, education environment, you know, many things that then comes with them as they start their career. And then the employers are like, well, wait a second. I we will learn from this. We do accept mistakes here, and we try not to have them, but they happen. We will fix the mistake, fix the consequences of the mistakes, learn from it. It’s fine. And but they are, like, undone completely.

Marie Helene [00:18:01]:

Yeah. And so right? So yet, it is absolutely what we’ll need even more of in our workplaces where we now have AI present. We’ll have even more of a presence of AI, which means we do want to sometimes test, to sometimes make mistakes, to learn from these things, to be able to talk about these situations so we navigate even better with everything, including AI. So, yes, it is it’s part of how we’ll design our cultures, you know, in our teams, and I know I’m speaking to you are interested in your thoughts about this too, but it’s part of it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:42]:

Yeah. Brilliant. I love that. And I suppose talking more broadly than resilience, like, are there some specific steps that we can take to build that as an individual, but then also collectively as a team or within an organization.

Marie Helene [00:19:01]:

Yes. There are. And I bet as, you know, we’re having this conversation and people are listening, they’re thinking, well, yeah, she’s gonna talk about exercise and she’s gonna talk about relationships. And and you’ll be right. I because research is behind all these beautiful, suggestions, and recommendations. The main challenge so, yes, just so we’re all on the same page. Yes. There are actions that we know from research, and we’re not talking about one or two studies.

Marie Helene [00:19:27]:

We’re talking about body of research. We’re, talking about exercise, including cardio, strength training, meditative type activities. We’re talking about having our sleep seven to eight hours a night most of the time, relationships, spending time with people we enjoy spending time with, nutrition, healthy most of the time. And then there are other variables like spending time in nature, helping others, volunteer work, spirituality, if it’s part of your life. So and we’ve heard about these things, especially after pandemic. You know, we’ve we’ve, most people have heard this is not the challenge. The challenge is implementation. It’s how how do we, and I’ll talk as individuals first, team and organization slightly different because there’s a structure there that helps.

Marie Helene [00:20:20]:

But for us as individuals, most people I speak to trust the research, would love to have these things in their lives. That would be great. But their life is full, overflowing. Yeah. And they don’t see how they’re going to bring any of this. Mhmm. Sometimes they do if it fits, you know, in the end, at the end of the week, the day, at the end of the vacation maybe, but mostly not. And so what’s missing is landing these actions, a version of these actions, in each of our particular context.

Marie Helene [00:20:55]:

And that’s when I thought I started doing this in my work, and now that’s the basis of the book that I wrote. We need to bring what we know from psychology and bring what we know from strategy, the same types of things we do in business. So we create a strategic resilience plan for ourselves in the current context. Meaning, my plan today, your plan today, will not necessarily be the same plan in three months from now. And your plan will be different from mine, even though we’re basing it on the same variables here. And that’s the the key difference there. So I would say on the personal side, definitely being on the strategic side is what makes the difference. Yeah.

Marie Helene [00:21:40]:

And then there’s also pieces on the work side, but I’ll pause there for right now. I can’t

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:44]:

hear your thoughts about this. No. No. Let’s let’s pause there and I think that that’s such an it’s an interesting insight, isn’t it? And it’s probably it’s to me it’s the knowing doing gap, isn’t it? You we know all of this stuff but why can’t we actually implement it? Why can’t we do anything about it? We know we need seven to eight hours sleep. We know we need to move every day, whatever that looks like for you. We know we need to eat healthy. We know we need to, drink less alcohol. What, you know, all of these things we know that we have to do, have less stress, spend time in nature, but, you know, spend time with people that we care about.

Aoife O’Brien [00:22:22]:

We know we need to do all of these things but like you say and I love your description of our lives are so full and there is a previous podcast episode where we talk about what it means to have a a full life versus a busy life. You know? So many people are running around because we’re so busy. And I think especially now, and I don’t know what has changed, but I feel like there’s some sort of acceleration happening where people want to get stuff done more and more quickly. Maybe it’s the speed of AI and we feel like we have to consistently and constantly be doing more. So how do we actually make that time? And like you say, having a unique approach for us. So, you know, I might say, well, my sleep is actually okay. I’m getting seven to eight hours. Sometimes I might stay up a little bit late if I’m watching something on Netflix.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:11]:

I don’t mind admitting that. We’re between friends here. Yeah. We all do. You know? We get caught out, and I’m like, oh, I really wanna watch that last episode. So, yeah, sleep might be okay, but there might be other parts that I need to do and maybe it’s a a kind of a longer term plan where I’m like, okay. So I’m gonna focus on this specific area for the next three months. We’ll see how that goes until that becomes BAU, business as usual, or into my daily routines and then have a think about something else or or have a different focus area or maybe have a look at these different pillars and and think, well, what you know, I’m putting on my coaching hat now, what would have the biggest impact for me? You know, is it making time for relationships? Is it catching up with friends on a more regular basis? All of these specific things.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:59]:

So I love how you’ve said that, like all of these things help us to to cope better and actually another question I had that I didn’t ask at the start and it’s really the answer to the question, like, why do we need to be more resilient? Like, why what is the reason? Like, why do we need resilience?

Marie Helene [00:24:19]:

I know. Right? That’s a good question. So do we are going to have all kinds of things that are happening in our full lives and whether and I often refer to these things as demands. And by demands, I mean anything that is requiring time, energy, investment, focus, all of these things from us. And a demand, sometimes people start by thinking it has to be negative. Like, something I don’t want. I wish I didn’t have a demand. No.

Marie Helene [00:24:50]:

No. Things that are very positive are also demands. So we’ve got a a promotion. We are moving to a a different place that we love, but now we need to, like, reorganize everything in it kinda thing. These are positive, but there’s still demand. It’s not just the same going on that’s stable and predictable or relatively predictable. So we’re going to have these demands. And we, as humans, have values, things that are important for us, that we want to make sure we bring to our lives, that kind of thing.

Marie Helene [00:25:22]:

So if we want to be in these lives and be happier at work, happier in our personal lives as well, We want to have the capacity to meet these demands or manage them. Sometimes it’s not meeting by doing the thing, but it’s managing what the demand is, deprioritizing this or other things, whatever. But we need some level of energy to do this. So that resilience is what allows us to make our best contributions, be our happiest self, whether it’s at work or in our personal lives. And so and we when I explain this, I’ll sometimes say, just even think for yourself, myself, anyone with us, listening to this today, think of the best moments in your life past two, ten, twenty, whatever years, you had that energy. Often, you’ll actually notice that those protective factors were there. Yeah, you were moving your body. You were in nature.

Marie Helene [00:26:22]:

You were doing all these things. And that often is because these other moments earlier in life, these factors were naturally there, either because you had less other demands, which happens in earlier adult life typically, or for whatever other reasons. And all we’re saying is now we need to be more deliberate about them, hence having a strategic plan. But the reason we need it is how we can, be and contribute and be as happy and and enjoying our lives as possible. Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:26:57]:

I love that explanation. And what spring into my mind is the opposite when you don’t have that and when you feel like it’s hard to make a decision, it’s hard to prioritize Yeah. Yeah. You find it really hard to cope with even little things when little things go wrong or you just lose it completely. You know? You’re like, I just cannot deal with this at all. So that’s kind of what’s what’s springing to mind for me when you talk about you have all of these ways and it help I love the description of it, the demands, and our capacity to be able to meet the demands, some of which are positive in our lives. I I absolutely love that as an explanation, and, hopefully, it frames it well for people to to get a better insight into, well, why why do why is it important to do all of these things?

Marie Helene [00:27:48]:

Yes. And and it’s important to also see what you were describing, like, the opposite. Right? What happens when we don’t have it? Yeah. Because sometimes people will be in a good phase, and they’ll say, well, MH, I don’t really need to invest in it. Like, look. Things are going great. That’s wonderful. And but they are in a situation where there are high demands right now.

Marie Helene [00:28:09]:

It’s working well. But as we know, if you’re in a situation with high demands right now going well, more demands may come, and that may require even more from you. And it is, I think, important to think both about the carrot and the stick in some ways. There are lots of wonderful benefits in investing, but there are also real challenges if you don’t, which, yes, could lead to that which you were describing, more difficult to concentrate, to make decisions. And, yeah, we may also it comes across in how we interact, more impulsivity, more, impatience in our interactions

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:46]:

with others. Yeah. Yeah.

Marie Helene [00:28:47]:

And then but all this at some point impacts your brand. And Yeah. If you’re not going to go at it from a health perspective, which, of course, part of me is thinking from from a health perspective. Yes. You need to. Mhmm. But if I’m not gonna catch you here, I’m gonna catch you on the brand side of things.

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:04]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How you’re actually showing up. Yeah.

Marie Helene [00:29:07]:

You’ve built your brand for years. You’ve worked to get to where you are. And do you really want to take the risk of your performance sliding the way you are leading or the way you’re contributing as a individual contributor sliding in a way that is absolutely not what you’ve spent years building? No. You don’t.

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:26]:

Yeah. I I I was gonna move on to the systemic nature, the the kind of team relational side of things, but I wonder is this separate to an individual reaching out for help to build their resilience and and speak about the the stuff that they’re going through, basically. Can we separate those out two, those two from each other, or is it all part of the same thing?

Marie Helene [00:29:55]:

Both.

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:56]:

Okay. So sometimes. Right?

Marie Helene [00:29:57]:

Because correction. I would say yeah. I will take both, actually, because sometimes depending, and then that’s why I’m arguing. It is such dependent on our individual context. Right? You may find yourself at the door of burnout, say, right now. Well, then if you’re at the door, like, literally, one foot is potentially in in that door, then the first part may actually be to connect with health professionals. So psychologists, physician. Because at this point, your health is so impacted that we need first to attend to this and then later see what we do go from a workforce perspective.

Marie Helene [00:30:37]:

We need that first. If we are not that at that door right now, but we are experiencing more overload, less engagement with the work we do, then perhaps there it is a conversation with the workplace. Keeping in mind, I may also decide to speak with a psychologist or my coach, for example, to also preventatively start talking about my strategies here. So it it will very much depend. And if you’re unsure, I would say do both, because we probably need to open more doors than this.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:11]:

Yeah. That that brings me back to something that you mentioned earlier actually, which was this idea of when things are going well, we think, oh, no. I don’t need that. I don’t you know, I’m doing okay at the moment, but actually, that’s the perfect time to build these resilient strategies and to get into the habit of doing those things because we do need to prepare for the future. Like, it’s not like you say, things are going well, but more demands are gonna come your way, and you might not necessarily have the capacity to deal with everything that’s that’s coming.

Marie Helene [00:31:39]:

Yes. Yes. Exactly. We want to, we want to think of it proactively. And often I’ll give that analogy of in a workplace completely separate. If we’re dealing with, say, a new product launch that we want to be successful in launching and and succeeding with that product over the over time, over the years, we won’t just say, oh, yeah. We have a new product. Let’s go.

Marie Helene [00:32:03]:

We’ll say we have a new product. Okay. Let’s see. Who else is offering this product right now? Who is buying it? How much, are they willing to pay for it? Which forces in the near or far future might impact the interest in this product? We will do all this. And all I’m saying is let’s do the same for our resilience. Let’s look at our context, what forces might impact it, that kind of thing, so that we set ourselves up in a deliberate way for right now and the moderate and longer term and evolve that strategy the same way we would in a workplace about a product.

Aoife O’Brien [00:32:39]:

Yeah. Like, revisit it from time to time to see what is it that I’m doing and I think, dare I say it, but when things get busy, when we you know, to use your language, when we get more demands than what what we necessarily have capacity for, oftentimes, our resilience and coping strategies are the first things to grow. Gym in the morning, no. Scrap it. I don’t have time. I have to focus on work. I don’t have time to cook a healthy meal, so I’m gonna get a takeout or whatever it might be. I’m trying to think now what else.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:11]:

Sleep. Oh, no. I’m gonna be working until one in the morning. I can cut the air. The window as well. Yeah. So, like, there’s all of these things. They’re really the first things that that slide, and they’re the things that help us to cope better with the demands that are coming at us.

Marie Helene [00:33:30]:

Yes. And yet, when I often ask when I ask people, you know, to think of the CEO of their organization, how is this person doing? What do we know about how they handle all this? Well, very often, they’ll notice this person is protecting their time to move their body, their exercise. Mhmm. They are protecting their granted, they are at a place where there are advantage they they have in a they are in a situation that the rest of us are not in, from, you know, a flexibility perspective, but also from a responsibility perspective. So if we’re looking just at that aspect, no doubt this individual is very busy. No doubt. They have lots of very high demands on their plate that they are managing, and look at it. They are incorporating these recommendations.

Marie Helene [00:34:22]:

So and we do know from body of research that even a small amount of exercise will make your brain think clearer. Better choice in what you’re eating will make a difference in how more productive you’re going to be this afternoon. So it’s, it is and, you know, I think it will be interesting to see also for the even younger generation who is hearing about these things more in school, and it’s even more part of their language. And then how they which choices they will make as, they bring their best. Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:56]:

That’s something I ever learned about or was taught about in school. I don’t think we even have that language, we wouldn’t have even known about it. Before we wrap things up, I’d love to talk a little bit more about the systemic nature. So you were saying like in a team or an organization, how we can build resilience at that level as well which is different to the to that individual level that we spoke about.

Marie Helene [00:35:20]:

Yes. Yes. So at the organizational level, often the ways in which resilience will be impacted is as the organization connects their overall health strategy with deeper or more specific strategies on mental health, for example, which often will incorporate elements of psychological safety. So as the organization increases the priority they put, on the mental health of their employees and, their resilience, the psychological safety they bring to the overall organization, the more that’s going to help. Now and that’s often at the organizational level. For many of us, we’re either leading a team or in a team. So we’re here, and what do we do, specifically? What kinds of actions can we consider? And they will many of them will connect with what we would do for psychological safety at the organizational level. But just to get more specific, okay, what what can you and I do tomorrow? Right? We can look at factors like, yeah, the workload.

Marie Helene [00:36:21]:

We could look at opportunities for growth and development. We can look at the culture of our team. Yes. We are part of a larger culture. True. And we can also decide as a team what kinds of beliefs do we want to adopt as a group? And and, you know, when I mentioned say workload, sometimes people say, oh, MH can’t touch that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:47]:

Too much.

Marie Helene [00:36:48]:

Stay there. It’s on everybody’s mind. So either you talk about it or you don’t. Better to talk about it. And, no, we’re not thinking of changing 80% of the workload. Obviously, there are roles and things we need to be doing. What I would encourage all of us, that includes me, to continue to do is stay curious about which small portion can shift. And if you’re wondering, oh, well, okay.

Marie Helene [00:37:15]:

What small portion? Where do I start? Maybe start with the the biggest irritants, the moments that all of us get stressed about because sometimes, I don’t know, they don’t happen very often, but when they do, the stakes are really high because we’re not used to dealing with this. Okay. Can we put the microscope on this, have even better guidelines, make sure we have three people on the thing when that happens so we’re we are feeling supported? And then suddenly, it feels like a 20% change, yet it was less than 1%. But we tweaked something that was significant, the biggest impact that you were, reflecting on earlier on something else. So these are examples of things. As teams, another one that I find is so doable is, you know, as teams will sometimes, of course, talk about everything that’s on our plate right now coming. Okay? Can we also talk about the most demanding moment for our team in the next year? The moment where most people know, oh, yeah. That’s the dark month.

Marie Helene [00:38:17]:

We just have to put our head down and do it. Doesn’t have to be. What could we do differently this year? What do we need to do in the three months prior to this to help us when we get there? What can we do after? Yes. There’s usually the debrief. What we could do better? Fine. Okay. Can we add? Who else can we thank? Who else outside of the team helped us go through this? And now we’re building a culture of recognition even more. We’re connecting even more.

Marie Helene [00:38:49]:

All this builds. It doesn’t happen in just a one gesture. It builds over time.

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:55]:

Yeah. But but

Marie Helene [00:38:55]:

it does build over time. So Yeah. Yeah. Can we start now?

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:59]:

No. It’s I think it’s it’s so important. The the workload thing for me like, when I talk about workplace well-being, the first thing I’ll address is the workload. Like, we can’t talk about workplace well-being without talking about the workload that we all have. And I guess that, yeah, most people feel like they can’t change the workload but there are some things that you can do, there are some things that are in individuals’ control, you know, things like looking at the meetings that you attend, things like checking your emails only twice a day and having agreements around communications that they don’t come at certain times at night or emergencies or, you know, texts for emergency or phone call for emergency or whatever so you’re not checking stuff all the time and picking up on things that you don’t you shouldn’t really be picking up on, you know, emails throughout the night, throughout the evening, I was gonna say night, I I suppose I mean evening really. The other thing that I’ve become quite interested in recently is this idea of expectations, so the expectations that we place on ourselves, the expectations we place on other people and the expectations that we think other people have of us, which I think causes us to show up in a certain way and maybe work a certain way, but, you know, challenging those expectations or or pushing back on deadlines or asking questions that mean that the workload gets reduced or getting clearer on expectations around time and quality of deliverables that you need to be working on so that it takes less time for you to actually do it. And I think sometimes we’re so afraid to ask for clarification, for expectations because somehow that means that we don’t know how to do our job, that the man-, you know, we’re kind of placing the onus down on someone else to provide the expectation but the onus should be on them to provide a clear explanation and set those clear expectations and guidelines about what it is that we’re working on. And I think that that can really help to to reduce that that burden of workload and and a sense of overwork.

Marie Helene [00:41:13]:

I % agree. And I I I think that is the the nugget there that I think if all of us use that more often, it would help. That piece about just asking. So Yeah. Because sometimes people think, oh, now, you know, I have all these expectations on me, and I need to either meet them or push back. And then I feel uncomfortable pushing back, so I don’t. So blah blah blah. How about, yeah, just asking for clarity? Because then and and and it goes both ways.

Marie Helene [00:41:42]:

Again, we’re in a relationship. We’re in a system. If you’re a leader, invite these conversations, check-in. And if you are a member of a team, bring it up. Let’s talk about it. Because so many times, and I I bet so many people listening to this will nod as we’re we’re thinking about these moments where how many times? It didn’t necessarily happen often, but hopefully, you will connect with one of your experiences where you’re in a tough situation. You think you’re very full. There there’s now actually no way you can do all the 10 things that are on your plate for this particular date.

Marie Helene [00:42:18]:

And somehow, you decide to go to your boss thinking, you know, and the boss just says, oh, MH, just these three things, we can wait two months for these two things. That’s fine. This one, just do the first step. That’s what is actually needed for the deadline. The other ones, we can push them effort. And then you’re like number one, you’re like, yay. And but then you’re also like, seriously?

Aoife O’Brien [00:42:39]:

Yeah. I’ve been pushing myself to get this done when it’s not actually needed at all.

Marie Helene [00:42:45]:

Or or there is flexibility where I assume there wasn’t.

Aoife O’Brien [00:42:48]:

Yeah. Or

Marie Helene [00:42:48]:

it was expressed as a deadline, so not, like, not flexible. Yeah. So and that’s the beautiful thing. So if that connects or even if you see the the the huge change that this brings, let’s be that leader who is saying, you know what? If it looks like this is too full, talk to me. Because sometimes I may be able to help. And if you’re that person in the team, go and talk. Because that’s the reason for the structure. The person above us, above or, you know, our leader, has a visibility that we don’t.

Marie Helene [00:43:19]:

That’s normal. That’s part of the structure. Let’s use that visibility. You can even express it that way. Given that you have a visibility that I don’t, I just thought I would check. Is there something here that has any flexibility on it that I’m not seeing?

Aoife O’Brien [00:43:35]:

Very friendly. Yeah. I think there’ll be a lot of people taking down notes from that that phrase in particular and using that with their leaders or encouraging people to to ask those kinds of questions as well to avoid these kinds of situations. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Exactly. Brilliant.

Aoife O’Brien [00:43:56]:

MH, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Marie Helene [00:44:02]:

Oh, and, you know, I think I touched on it as we were talking today. I’m gonna have to say it is, having even more strategic resilience, at all levels because right? Even we saw it even in our conversation. Right? As we have, say, an organization, a team, and us as individuals all investing with even more deliberate, intention in resilience for all of these groups, then that opens a door for everything else to be more fantastic. We can bring our best. We can feel that sense of purpose, that sense of meaning, have better relationships. All of this then become will be components that, to me, in my personal experience and in the work that I do Yeah. Just brings fabulous moments of happiness at work. So I’m gonna go for strategic resilience.

Aoife O’Brien [00:44:54]:

I love that. And if people want to find out more about you, if they want to buy your book, what is the best way to connect with you?

Marie Helene [00:45:03]:

Okay. Thank you for asking. So they can go to the resilienceplan.com. That will bring you to my book, what I do, everything. LinkedIn, always great. Love connecting, hearing your thoughts, and seeing what you’re interested in. So LinkedIn is also also a great way. And we’ll have that in the show notes if you’re able.

Marie Helene [00:45:22]:

I have some worksheets that we can that come from the book that can be used, independently. It can be used without or with the book. So, and and they’re free. So, we’ll have them Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:45:33]:

Fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. No. We’ll pop the LinkedIn link to your book and link to the, worksheets as well in the show notes. Amazing. Thank you. Brilliant.

Aoife O’Brien [00:45:44]:

Thank you so much for the conversation today. I think we we went wide and we went deep. I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom.

Marie Helene [00:45:52]:

Thank you, Aoife. It was a plea pleasure.