280: Leading Change through Flexible Leadership with Kevin Eikenberry

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:02]:

In today’s modern working environment, flexibility has become more important than ever, especially from a leadership perspective. This is what we’re talking about in today’s episode of the Award-Winning Happier Work Podcast, the Career and Culture Podcast for People First Leaders. I’m your host, Iffa O’Brien.

I’m a career and culture strategist for commercial leaders and teams, and I’m joined by Kevin Eikenberry to discuss insights from his book all about flexible leadership. So we talk about some very specific tools and strategies that you can implement as a leader. I really hope you enjoy today’s episode.

Do let me know what’s one thing that you’re gonna do differently as a result of listening to today, and I’d love for you to get involved in the conversation on your favorite podcast platform, or join me over on LinkedIn.

Kevin, you’re so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I’m thrilled to be on the other side of the mic this time in our conversation. Would you like to introduce yourself to listeners a little bit of a flavor of your career history and how you got into doing what you’re doing today?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:00:17]:

Thanks so much for having me Aoife. My name is Kevin Eikenberry. I own a training and consulting company focused on helping leaders make the world a better place, based in Indianapolis, Indiana. Our team, our team is spread out across the United States. And as I said, we’re in the business of helping leaders get better. Because when leaders get better, lots and lots of really good things happen in the world. And so I’ve been in this world doing this work for a long time, and the company’s been in business almost 32 years. And so I’m excited to join you today to talk a little bit about my latest book.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:00:53]:

I’ve had the great pleasure to work with leaders from 53 countries the last time I counted, and I’ve written a bunch of stuff and produced a lot of content in a variety of ways. But my newest book, Flexible Leadership, is, I think, my most important work to date. And I think that’s what we’re going to talk about today. And I’m excited to do that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:01:12]:

Absolutely love it. I can’t wait to get into it now. Kevin, I want to just come, come back to this idea of better and helping leaders be better and maybe look at it from a couple of different perspectives. So the one being, okay, what’s not? What are the blockers there? And also, what does being better actually look like?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:01:31]:

Well, let’s start with what leadership is. So here’s Kevin’s There’s a, there’s a thousand, maybe more than that, definitions of leadership. And some I think are too limited. Some I think are not helpful because they’re too broad. Here’s mine. Leadership is reaching valuable outcomes with and through others. And so leadership isn’t about us. Now, I know this conversation is mostly going to be about us, like what do we need to do as a leader to be more effective? And that’s important.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:01:59]:

But all of that is only so whatever best is is only in context of and in service of outcomes, better outcomes and helping others be more effective as well. So that’s the way we see this and the way we like to talk about it. And so what does being better mean? It means doing a more effective job and helping achieve the outcomes that have been set, whether it’s by you or others. Right. And doing that in a way that allows people to be engaged, participating and making a difference in reaching those outcomes. Like if we didn’t need, if you could do it yourself, you’re not, you’re not a leader. You’re just doing work.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:41]:

Yeah, right.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:02:42]:

So others have to be a part of that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:44]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s achieving that through others. What do you think are the big blockers? Like, what are stopping leaders from being really effective these days?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:02:53]:

Well, the number one thing is doing it is hard. Like, it’s, it’s complex. I’ve had the chance to work with leaders from NASA, you know, the, the folks in the US that put rockets in the air, at least one of the groups that put rockets in the air. And, and when I work with, when I have worked with leaders there, they’ve all, they, they’ve come up through the organization. Right. They, they, they did work, and now they were leading work. And so that means that some of these people are literally ifa. Rocket scientists.

Aoife O’Brien [00:03:22]:

Yes. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:03:23]:

And if you ask them which is harder, building rockets, designing rockets, or leading people, guess what they say?

Aoife O’Brien [00:03:32]:

I can imagine I’m laughing here. Right?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:03:35]:

They say leading people. And, and so, and so. And I don’t know about you, but when I think about, like, really smart people in the world, I think like brain surgeons, rocket scientists. And, and if they’re saying, well, yeah, but leading people’s harder.

Aoife O’Brien [00:03:49]:

Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:03:50]:

Then that should give us a clue. I mean, listen, we are leading human beings, which means we are leading incredibly complex folks and lots of them all at once. And so that means the human beings who are amazing and wonderful and fantastic and unpredictable and messy, and it’s hard.

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:15]:

Yeah, Right.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:04:16]:

And leadership is a business. We’re in the business of influence, which means we don’t really have control. All we have control of is ourselves. And so that means if, if leadership is about outcomes and others, both of those are things that we can only influence. So our job is how do we have greater or more effective influence in both of those areas? And that means it’s really hard. So I think the single biggest reason barrier is that it’s hard. And I think that too many people either are unaware of how hard it is or they have gotten complacent because they’ve had some level of, you know, not failure or they think that it’s beyond them. I mean, there’s a lot of people in the world that believe that leaders are born and not made right.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:05:09]:

So, like, if. Who am I? I can’t really get There you and I talked. Have talked about, you know, the imposter syndrome in the past. And so I think there’s some of that. There’s lots of barriers. Those are three.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:21]:

Yeah. Amazing. And what prompted the book? You were saying, if this is your best work to date, where did it come from?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:05:28]:

Well, the marketplace will tell us if it really is in the end, and it’s too early to tell that, I suppose, but I believe it’s the most important work I’ve done because I think I was. I was being interviewed about an hour ago, actually, by someone else for a podcast, and they said it’s a fresh look at leadership. And they were introducing me, and I sort of. The cynic in me said, well, what could possibly be fresh about talking about leadership when hundreds of books are written about it every year? And yet I believe it is saying something that’s never quite been said before. And. And that’s why I think it’s important in a world that’s more complex and uncertain than ever. I think that to think that we can lead the way we always have and get the results that we want is folly.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:19]:

Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:06:19]:

And so what I’ve tried to do is provide people a new way, a slightly different way to think about leading and. And giving them a framework to think about how I can move past my preconceived notions, past my habits and past experience, and past what I have determined or been told is my personal style so that I can actually flex in the moment to get better results. Because if leadership’s about influencing outcomes than others, then in the moment, what’s the best way for me to have that influence? And that doesn’t mean doing it the same way I’ve always done it, because right now, the way I’ve always done it might be great in this moment, or I may need to do something quite different than that. And that’s where we get stuck. So the other barrier that I didn’t mention earlier, that’s that I sort of saved for this, for this moment, is the other barrier is our style in our identity.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:19]:

Okay, yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:07:20]:

Once we’ve decided what that is, it’s very difficult for us to shift, change, grow.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:25]:

Do you think that is hindered by labels that other people give us or that maybe exist? You know, I’m thinking back to when I was studying this stuff, like, oh, you’re a transformational leader, or you’re a. You know, and the kind of labels that we give people, or maybe a definition based on their personality styles and things like that that we get so caught up in this that this is who I am.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:07:47]:

So.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:48]:

So I can’t be another way 100%. Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:07:51]:

So I’ve been at this a long time, as I said earlier, and so I’m fortunate enough to know some of the people. So one way to look at this is if you leave the military out of it. And I don’t mean that’s not important. But if you think about the studying of leaders, it’s only been about 100 ish years that we’ve really studied leadership, leaders in leadership outside of the military realm. And so I’ve been involved in that for a third or a quarter of that time, depending on how far you count it. That’s crazy. But what that means is that I know some of the people that have built some of the models that you just mentioned. You know, and here’s what I know, both the ones I know and only the ones I’ve read about.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:08:35]:

Like, I believe that everyone’s intention has been solid. Everyone’s intention has been to help leaders be more effective. The problem is exactly what you said, though, that whether it’s a label someone gives us or that an assessment gives us, we have locked those in. So what’s really happened is there’s an assessment that has great intention. That’s. That’s a model of the world, and the world is super complex. And a model is designed to simplify it enough that we can actually start to understand it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:04]:

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:09:05]:

But then what we do is simplify it again and. And all of the nuance is now gone. Right. So instead of saying, I learned something about my tendencies by taking disc, Myers, Briggs, et cetera, I say, oh, this is who I am. Or instead of saying, hey, here are some things I’m maybe naturally stronger at, or that I lean in towards more than other things, I say, this is a fait accompli and this is me. And those second. That second jump is not helpful because then it’s our identity. And once it’s our identity, like, we all know that changing a habit is hard, right? Changing your identity is infinitely hard.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:44]:

Oh, wow. Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is something, you know, something that you’ve. This is everything I perceive myself to be. And if that gets challenged, then it’s like, who am I if I’m not?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:09:56]:

Or. Yeah, exactly. Or now you’re saying you need to try to do something different. I’m saying some of the time you need to do something different. See, to me, there’s a big difference between tendency and identity. And all of these models can really help us understand tendency and that’s useful. But when we take it another step, not so useful. Yes, we’re overly simplifying a world that is more complex than ever.

Aoife O’Brien [00:10:33]:

Yeah. And as humans, I think we have a tendency to do that to makes it easy to understand, easier to understand 100%.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:10:42]:

That’s why the models exist in the first place. Right. It’s just that we then take it another unnecessary step. Like the premise behind this book is that I’m suggesting that we as leaders have to do something that’s hard because it means that we have to at least consider doing something beyond what we’re naturally used to doing, comfortable doing, have been told we ought to do, etc. Etc. Like it’s being willing to say, well, in this moment is my natural tendency the right answer or not?

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:20]:

Yeah. Such a powerful question. And I am one of those total nerds who loves taking those assessments to understand more about who I am and my natural tendencies. And so I think this is, it is quite revelatory. Let’s say that we are challenged in. I don’t have to show up in that way. And actually I need to show up in the way that that is required by other people, not which, not, not show up in a way that is a tendency for myself. That is my natural way of behaving.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:11:54]:

So having, whether, whether you’ve taken one of those or 21, as apparently you have taken of those of those models, they’re useful in terms of revealing to ourselves a little bit about what our natural tendency would be. Excuse me. And then what we can do with that is say, okay, is that going to serve the team right now? Is that going to serve outcomes? Is that going to serve others right now best? Am I willing to go beyond that in this moment? And if we’re willing to try and go beyond that in this moment, and I’m not talking about making changes that can never be turned back. Right. I’m not talking, excuse me, I’m not talking about one way, one way door decisions like Jeff Bezos talks about, like he can’t come back from that. Really hard to come back from that one. I’m talking about the decisions we make about the way we run the meeting today, the way we coach someone this afternoon, the way we respond to an email tomorrow. Like that’s the kind of stuff I’m talking about.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:12:54]:

That’s the real stuff of leadership. Should we be flexible about the big strategic stuff? Of course. I think people get that way more than they do What I’m doing today, tomorrow, and the next day. Because all of that stuff we’re just doing habitually.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:08]:

Yeah. The other thing that I love what you’re talking about is it’s the. In the moment. It’s what do I need right now? Which I think we’re so. Exactly as you alluded to. We’re so used to thinking bigger picture and like this is a huge decision I need to make versus how we show up on a day to day basis, how we interact one on one, how we run the team meeting. As you say, how do we recognize first of all if something needs to change or if something can be improved?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:13:42]:

Well, that’s a big question. I would say the first thing that comes to my mind is probably not the first thing to do, but the first thing that comes to my mind is you got to be, you got to be asking for feedback. You got to be asking your team to tell you what’s working and what’s not. Like, I think that my team would all tell you if you were to interview them rather than me, which might be far more revealing than talking to Kevin. Is that, that I routinely ask them, what do you need from me? How can I, how can I, how can I help? What am I doing that’s getting in your way? What can I do to help you be more effective? So asking for feedback from others, because we all have blind spots. So I, I write a newsletter. I read a couple newsletters. One newsletter I write comes out every Monday, Wednesday and Friday.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:14:32]:

And I wrote this yesterday and it will come out tomorrow. And that is that when we stop learning, our blind spots get bigger. That when we stop learning, our blind side, spots get bigger. And so what if, if we want to, if we want to remove blind spots, which means becoming aware of them, one of the things we’ve got to do is ask for feedback. We got to say, what am I not. Tell me what I’m not seeing. Because like, everyone’s operating based on, in a way that makes sense, based on how they see the world. So if we can see new things, then we can make new choices.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:15:03]:

And this whole point about flexible leadership is I’m trying to help people see the world differently. So then they will naturally say, I need to think about it. I need to make, I may need to make different choices because now I see the world in a new, expanded, and maybe more accurate way.

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:18]:

Yeah, I’m, I’m 100% behind you on growing in awareness and seeking out feedback. I think sometimes as leaders, we feel very challenged to ask for feedback, probably because it will challenge how we’re thinking, how we’re seeing things, how we’re thinking about things. Any words of wisdom? Everyone? Everyone that it sends a shiver down your spine if someone says to you proactively, I, I have some feedback or I need to talk to you. At the end of the day, you know, the immediate thought is this is going to be something bad. I’m in trouble.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:15:57]:

If you don’t believe people have baggage about the word feedback, tell them you’ll give on Friday. Tell them you’ll give them feedback on Monday.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:02]:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:16:04]:

And everyone laughs. I said, yeah, but don’t do that. It’s going to ruin that person’s weekend. Because that word triggers for us. Oh, yeah, right. It just does. Lots of reasons why that’s the case, but it is the case. And so there’s all sorts of power in us asking for feedback as a leader and one of it is so that we can get better at understanding all that stuff.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:16:26]:

But it’s, there’s a couple other things going on here. One is that it’s, it’s a trust building moment.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:33]:

Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:16:35]:

Simply asking, even if you don’t get any, signifies to them that you’re open to it. Now, if you keep asking and you never get it, guess what? That may tell you that there isn’t as much trust as you wish. Because if you keep asking, never get any, then guess what? It doesn’t mean they don’t have any. It just means they’re choosing not to share it. And the third thing that it does is it models for them. Like if you ask for feedback and then receive it graciously and thankfully, whatever it is, you’re modeling for them what you hope they will do.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:15]:

Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:17:16]:

Subconsciously. Right. And our action speaks louder than our words. So it’s one thing to say I want you to receive this feedback, it’s another thing for them to have seen you receiving feedback, even if it’s hard to hear.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:34]:

And for those people who are listening today who haven’t necessarily taken that step, they maybe have their head in the sand. They’re afraid to ask for feedback in case they get something they didn’t really want to hear. Any words of wisdom of taking that first step.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:17:53]:

Don’T ask for it if you are going to accept it. Now that’s different. There’s a difference between accepting it and applying it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:04]:

Yes.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:18:05]:

Because you can get feedback from one person in one moment and that’s a data point. That doesn’t mean you have to Apply every single thing you get. But if you’ve heard it 16 times, you probably ought to think about applying it. Right. But I think that, like I always tell leaders, always is a long time. I, I often tell leaders, don’t ask a question you already have the answer for.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:30]:

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:18:31]:

And so if you’re not, if you don’t, if you don’t earnestly want the feedback, if you don’t want to know what they think or what they see, don’t ask. But assuming that you do, just ask and say why you’re asking. Yeah, hey, I really, you know what? I want to be a better leader for you. I want to be a better leader for this team. So if all that’s true and they say, and so, you know, I know there are things I don’t see. I know there are things I see, but I don’t see all of the implications of, like, tell me what I need to know. Tell me what I’m doing. Unintentionally, it’s not helpful.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:19:14]:

Tell me what I’m doing. That’s a bear. Like, whatever. You don’t just ask all those questions at once. But like, give people your intention and then ask and the odds of feeling safer to them to respond goes up.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:32]:

I love that. And so we were talking about how can we, I suppose, be aware in the moment of how to change. Is there anything else that we can do aside from asking for feedback to, to build whether it’s our self awareness or just being aware of. Okay, when do I need to flex? When do I need to change here?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:19:52]:

Yeah, I’m answering two parts. Let me go back to the first part first. I know that feels like a similar question, but I think there’s two things here. The first thing is, number one, be aware that chances are you need to get better. Like, let’s just be honest with yourself.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:06]:

And say there’s always room for improvement.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:20:09]:

I could be better. Yeah. Because if you don’t have that, like, if you are, if you feel like you have expertise, like, expertise is awesome. It’s kind of like all of the assessment stuff, they’re awesome until they’re not. Expertise is awesome until it leads you to say, well, I got it figured out. I’m not going to ask you more questions. I don’t want to learn anymore. I’ve got it figured it out.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:20:28]:

Which is the downfall. That’s the start of the downfall. Right. So that’s the first part. Having an intention and recognition that perhaps not everything I’m doing is the best way that’s the first part. So intention. And then the second part is, when do I flex? Right. Like, when do I flex? So in the book, we talk about that the flexible leadership approach is intention plus context plus flexors.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:20:56]:

So we’ve talked a little bit about context, but context basically is what’s actually happening here. And in the book we go into a good bit more detail about this. But fundamentally, what’s the situation here? And what does the situation tell me that might lead me to do something different? Right. And the simplest way to think about this is if you ever someone asked you a question or you’re thinking about a decision yourself, and you say to yourself, or you say to the other person, it depends. That’s a trigger to say, well, then we need to discuss or describe or think about what it depends on, because that’s context.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:29]:

Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:21:30]:

Now it’s saying, oh, it depends on what? Well, it means. It could. There’s this thing and there’s this part. There’s this part. There’s this part, and there’s six things here. And what choices could I make? What decisions could I make that would have the best chance of having impact on more of those things? Because I don’t even know which one is the biggest one, which one’s the most important one. But are there things I could do which might be quite different than my natural habit that gives us the best chance of influencing one or more of those eventualities, which we might not even be able to figure out which one it’s going to actually be, or how relative important each of them are. So we’ve all done that.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:22:02]:

It depends. What does it depend on? That’s context. And then flex consciously now, because it’s not automatic. Right. And about what do I do next? Now, it may be the thing you’re naturally good at that you’re comfortable with. Awesome. So being flexible doesn’t mean always doing it different than your natural habit, doing what makes the most sense in the moment.

Aoife O’Brien [00:22:24]:

Hmm. And you talked about having flexors. So what are some of those flexors? So coming back to this, number one is context. Number two is, is that the knowing when. And then the number three is, well, what can I actually do?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:22:41]:

So flexors are. So here’s the idea of a flexor. And by the way, the word flexor is the only real use in the world is around our muscles up until now. Right. So I’ve created this new version of this word flex, flexer, which is the idea that, well, let’s just go back to change for a second. So I’ve worked with thousands of leaders and asked in an exercise of this question, like, what are the biggest mistakes that leaders make when they take over a team? When they, whether they’re a brand new leader for the first time or they’re with a new team, what are the mistakes that they make? And there’s this long list of mistakes that we’ve, most of us have made or we’ve seen. And one of the mistakes that I hear is they make too much change too fast.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:20]:

Yes.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:23:21]:

And one of the mistakes I hear is they never change anything.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:25]:

Okay.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:23:26]:

Okay. And by the way, both of those are mistakes. Yeah, that’s a flexor.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:30]:

Okay.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:23:31]:

Too much change, no change. And the idea of a flexor is at the ends of the spectrum. The far ends of each end of the spectrum is rarely the best answer. Yeah, not never rarely the best answer. The right answer is somewhere in between. Now, all of us tend to be on this flexor or any of many others in the book we talk about 19. And that’s really not as important as this concept that I’m sharing with you is that most of us. So point number one is there is truth in both and there’s problems at the.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:24:08]:

At the extremes. Problems at the extremes. Truth in both. There are times when more change is needed. There are times when less change is needed. Right. And chances are you are on one end ish of the spectrum or the other. Most people aren’t right in the middle.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:24:24]:

Most people are somewhere on one end or the other. So once we have context, say, well, in this context, which way should I be leaning? Should I be leaning toward more change or not? Now, that might not be the flexor in this particular moment, but that’s the idea. Like if the situation is more complex or if the situation is, if there’s lots of other change going on right now, maybe right now doesn’t mean more change. Maybe right now means we need to let some of the things that we’re already changing settle in or make sure that they’re working to make sure that we don’t have competing sorts of things happen here. Unintended consequences. Or maybe, you know, we have a drastic problem and we need to set other stuff aside. And right now we need to make a bunch of change. Like one of those two things I just said could feel very weird to you or uncomfortable to you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:25:16]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. Your natural tendency to, to come in as a new leader, for example, in a, you know, a new leader in an existing team and have a tendency to want to overhaul Everything. So to bring it into your systems or your way of doing things. And actually it’s about recognizing that that is my natural tendency to want to do that. How do I pull back a little bit and have a view of the bigger picture to see in this context that we’re operating in? Actually, the team has been through a whole load of change, or maybe there hasn’t been any change in a while, and so more changes required, but not a complete and utter overhaul, which might be the natural tendency.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:25:59]:

Agreed.

Aoife O’Brien [00:26:01]:

Brilliant. Love it. And in terms of the book, then, what other kinds of things do you talk about when it comes to flexible leadership?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:26:09]:

the book is written around this con, this constraint, or this construct, which is that mindset leads to skill set, leads to habit set. And so if we don’t get the mindset, which is where we spent the first part of this conversation, if we don’t get the mindset to match the skills, then it doesn’t matter. I mean, I can. Someone can intellectually understand the skills, they’re not going to do them. It doesn’t make sense to them based on how they see the world.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:26:40]:

Mindset has to match skill set. And yet all of us have been to lots of training and read lots of books and really love the stuff we read, want to make change, listen to podcasts, really, you know, got a new skill, but there’s a difference between knowing it and doing it. So the book talks about mindset, skill set, and then habits that. Making the shift in real time to being more flexible in the moment when we need to be.

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:05]:

Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:27:05]:

So that’s. That’s the one thing. The other thing I would say is, we really. The last word in the subtitle of the book is the word confidence. And I really hope that what people get from the book is a framework and an approach that can help them be more confident. Not more confident. Not in terms of being more certain. Like, we’re not going to be able to take the uncertainty out, but be able to be more confident to navigate through the uncertainty with our team.

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:40]:

Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:27:41]:

And I think that the ideas that I share in the book help people do that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:47]:

Brilliant. Coming back to this idea of mindset and like, how you. How you see the world and making the shift between knowing what you know or your perception and actually doing it and applying it, like, that’s something I talk about quite often because it’s one thing and I do this myself. It’s one thing to read a book and be like, I feel so inspired by that. And it’s another thing completely to apply what you’ve learned to what you do on a day to day basis. Any thoughts on how, how do we make the leap to knowing the skills and then later embedding that as, as our habits or our behavior?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:28:25]:

Yeah, well, there’s tons, there’s tons of great research that’s been done in the last 30 years about habit formation and habit deconstruction and all that stuff. You know, whether it’s Clear Habits or Atomic habits or two of the real popular books that have helped to popularize some of that great science. So I think there’s some of that. But I would say in, in that context, here’s what I would say right now is start small.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:48]:

Yes.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:28:48]:

Right.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:49]:

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:28:49]:

Even in, even in a 30 minute podcast. Or maybe like six things that you say, well, I want to do that, I want to do that one, that. And as you know, if at the end of the conversation when you were on my show, I ended with this question, now what?

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:01]:

Yes.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:29:01]:

And that’s the question that you need to ask yourself after you finish the book, after you listen to the podcast is, okay, what’s the, what’s the one or two things? Where am I gonna start? Yeah, there might be 31 things. Awesome. I can’t do 31 things. Can’t do seven things. When someone says to me, I have seven goals, say, you got seven, you got none. Yeah, right. I mean, not saying you don’t have seven things you want to get, but like 1, 2, 3, 3. Not much.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:29:28]:

No more than that. Like, what am I really trying to do right now? What’s the one thing from this conversation, the one thing from the book, the one thing from the workshop that I’m going to start with. And then how am I going to trigger myself around that? So in this conversation, I would say the next time you say or think it depends, stop and consider what it depends on before you make your next step and be willing to consider doing something other than your natural tendency.

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:57]:

Yeah, yeah, I. Going back to this idea of starting small, that’s something I share at the end of every podcast episode is what’s one? Just one thing that you’ll do differently. Because my natural tendency is to want to do everything. Like, I’ve learned these six new things or I’ve learned these 31 new things and I want to do them all. I want to, you know, I might need to find Another system to delay some of the other things. But, like, what are the most important 1, 2, or 3 things that I need to do straight away? The other thing that I loved about what you said, Kevin, is the idea of a trigger. So what is that trigger for me? How am I going to become aware that this is a moment where I can use this new skill? And I think that awareness is key and probably something I haven’t really talked about before, but I love that as an insight. So if I say the word it depends or if I’m new here, and my tendency is this, and I have an inclination to want to do this, like just pause for a minute and think about what really needs to happen here.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:00]:

I love the idea of just identifying in advance what a trigger might be. And I often think about, well, if I’m starting on something, what’s going to be a blocker for this? But I think a trigger is almost the opposite because it’s a positive intention of. When I see this happening, here’s an action I need to take based on something that I’ve learned.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:31:22]:

100% agree with you, 100% brilliant.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:25]:

And this idea then, of confidence, obviously, we spoke on your show about imposter syndrome. I love this idea of it’s not about having certainty and you don’t have to be certain to show up with confidence. You can still lead in uncertainty, but it’s really about being able to navigate that and feeling confident despite not having all the answers. We did have a lady on the show previously talking about her book, All About Uncertainty and sometimes uncertainty again. We can use it as a flex. We can use it to our advantage. Any thoughts on, you know, maybe a natural tendency to want to have all the answers as a leader and not necessarily having all the answers, but still being able to lead in a really confident way.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:32:12]:

So many of us have come into a role of leadership, thinking we’re supposed to have all the answers right. In fact, many of us got promoted because we had an awful darn lot of good answers. Right. And many of us were good in school, which. Where the game was to know what the right answer was right. And. And a lot of the stuff in school, there were right answers for two plus two equals. And a lot of the technical expertise that we had in the workplace.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:32:43]:

There were right answers.

Aoife O’Brien [00:32:44]:

Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:32:44]:

Or closer to or a narrow range of right answers. And then we become leaders where the world is much less either or and much more both hand. And the short answer that I usually give to people. Have you ever had a boss that felt like a know it all. And people will nod their head and said, is that who you really want to follow? So just remember if in the simplest, flippantest way, that would be my answer. If you feel like you need to have all the answers, think about the leader you had that seemed like they acted like they had them. Is that who you wanted to follow? And, and listen, the world is too complex for us to have all the answers.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:29]:

Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:33:30]:

And that doesn’t mean that we can’t have a lot of expertise. That doesn’t mean we can’t have a lot of experience that’s valuable. It doesn’t mean any of that. It just means that there’s almost always more to it. And so I believe that at some level, the more, the more we think we know, the more we need to realize that there’s a bunch we don’t know. And if we can keep that in mind, I think we have a chance of overcoming what is a very, very natural tendency to feel like. And it’s often a weight. Like I, I have this weight on my shoulders that I’m supposed to have the answers.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:09]:

Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:34:10]:

We answer because we think we’re supposed to. We think that’s what’s expected. And, and I would say think again. Leading is about reaching valuable outcomes with and through others, and doing all of that is more than you can do alone.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:27]:

Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:34:28]:

Right. You have responsibility, but not all of the responsibilities.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:38]:

Yeah. I like, I like how you’ve put that. And I think so often we feel the pressure to have all the answers. We, we feel like that is our responsibility is to have all the answers. One of the approaches that, that I like to take is the coaching approach. So asking questions. So if you don’t know the answer to some something, you can deflect it with an answer and have people figure things out for themselves as well. So you’re like, I don’t know the answer to this, but, you know, here’s either how you can find out or coach them through to find the answer for themselves as well.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:35:13]:

Yep. I agree 100%.

Aoife O’Brien [00:35:39]:

Kevin, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happy about work mean to you?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:35:57]:

Choosing. We are human beings and, and we get. And maybe the biggest thing that separates us from the other animals is our power of choice. And so if, if we want to be happier at work, choose.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:21]:

Yeah.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:36:21]:

To be happier at work. It’s a choice.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:24]:

Yeah, I love that. And I, I often talk about that as well, that we all, oftentimes we feel like we’re stuck in a place, but, but more often than not, we have a choice in a situation. And whether that choice is I’m choosing to stay here because I’m supporting my family or whatever it might be, or always bringing it back to I’m choosing to stay in this situation versus I feel like I’m stuck. So I, I love that. And if people want to connect with you, if they want to find out more about what you do, your training, they want to find out more about the book. What’s the best way they can do that?

Kevin Eikenberry [00:37:00]:

If you liked what we’ve talked about and you want to connect with me or follow me on LinkedIn, I would love that. You can find me, Kevin Ikenberry there. Our website is Kevinichenberry.com and you can search around and find all sorts of our products and services there. I want to point you to two links right now specifically because of this conversation. Number one, kevininconberry.com flexible one of the places you can go to find links to buying the book and get a free chapter kevinikenbury.com flexible and also you go to Kevin Eikenberry.com gift where I have a gift for you, which is a free, free access to our remarkable masterclass on building our confidence in the confidence of others. Kevin Eikenberry.com gift brilliant.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:46]:

Thank you so much. I really, really enjoyed the conversation today, Kevin, and thank you so much for your time and sharing your wisdom.

Kevin Eikenberry [00:37:52]:

It was my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:50]:

That was Kevin Eikenberry talking all things flexible leadership. I really hope you had some insights from today’s episode, and I’d love to know what you’re going to do differently after listening to today’s episode. If you know someone who could benefit from the insights shared today, definitely share it with them, and don’t forget to get involved in the conversation, whether it’s over on LinkedIn or through your favorite podcast platform.