298: Navigating Today’s Multigenerational Workforce with Mary Collins

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:01]:

Do you have to deal with different generations at work on a day-to-day basis? If so, this episode is absolutely for you. This is the Hacker at Work podcast. I’m your host Aoife O’Brien, and my guest today is Dr. Mary Collins. We talk all about the tensions that exist between generations at work. They get a lot of headlines at work, but what’s the real science behind what’s going on? Mary has some wonderful insights to share around that. If you’re leading a team of different generations at work, it’s really important to understand the perspectives that they’re coming and the strengths that they bring and how to operate in this multi-generational environment. If you enjoy today’s episode, don’t forget to leave a rating or review on your favorite podcast platform and do get involved in the conversation on LinkedIn.

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:52]:

Mary, welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I know we initially had a conversation. I was going to say on the beach. It wasn’t quite on the beach, but it was close to the beach in sunny Tenerife, probably about a year ago.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:01:04]:

Yeah, last summer, Aoife. Yeah, it was wonderful to connect with you in person in Tenerife, thanks to our mutual dear friend Chris Black, introduced us.

Aoife O’Brien [00:01:16]:

Yeah, another past guest of the podcast.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:01:19]:

And I managed to avoid the water park for the day and have an amazing conversation with you over coffee by the— near the beach. Yeah, so it’s, it’s great to, to be back in your company.

Aoife O’Brien [00:01:34]:

Yeah, likewise, likewise. I’m looking forward to this conversation. And for the benefit of listeners, do you want to let them know a little bit about your career history, your background, and how you got into doing what you’re doing today?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:01:47]:

Yeah, sure. So I’m a chartered psychologist, and my background has been very much in leadership talent development. I worked— my last sort of big corporate job was in Deloitte, where I was head of leadership and talent, managing the promotions process there, running a lot of leadership programs, leadership coaching. And I did that for 7, 7 great years, really loved it. And then after my second baby, I had that moment of, you know, what am I doing with my time, my the meaning and purpose, the shifting identities, all of that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:24]:

We all go through that.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:02:27]:

Yeah, it was very much, I think, that time of reflection, and I made the decision to move more towards healthcare. So I joined the Royal College of Surgeons Institute of Leadership, as it was at the time, and, um, I’m still there, and I’ve moved to the Center for Positive Health Sciences over the last number of years. And I— my baby, if you like, in that role is I lead the professional diploma in leading workplace health and wellbeing. So I’ve always been interested in very much people flourishing at work. And we know work has a significant impact on our, not only our psychological wellbeing, our social wellbeing, but our physical wellbeing as well. So I’m really enjoying that intersection between psychology and the workplace, well-being, leadership, and I feel very grateful, Aoife, that I’ve, you know, I’ve come to this point where all of my areas of interest, passion, research are sort of aligning into this space now.

Aoife O’Brien [00:03:36]:

Is there anything that kind of that you’ve learned or that has stood out to you, or maybe that leaders don’t get and you wish that they got?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:03:45]:

Oh, you know, so much. I’m a real believer in, you know, humanity at work, you know, the human skills. Just taking the time to develop connections, to show empathy, to show kindness. Like, there’s just— people are under such pressure, particularly in— I work mainly in healthcare. It’s a lot of burnout in the system. There’s a lot of people under serious pressure, a lot of anxiety, sort of low-level anxiety. A lot of the impacts of the pandemic I think we’re only really starting to see emerging now in terms of how it’s impacted people’s psychological well-being. So I think that concept of, you know, really amplifying the human skills, and a lot of my work is underpinned by emotional intelligence and really supporting people around developing those skills can all be developed.

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:46]:

Yeah, yeah. Well, I was going to ask, what do you think is the first step to creating that kind of human, more human workplace?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:04:55]:

Yes, great question. And for me, it all comes down to awareness, like really, you know, self-awareness in the first instance, like really understanding your own emotional state, um, the impact you have on others, how you show up. I’m very interested in neuroscience as well. I run a neuroscience, a global neuroscience program every year with a Sydney-based neuroscientist, Dr. Sarah Mackay, the Neuroscience Coaching Network, where we apply the latest neuroscience to coaching practice. And I’m really interested in that, you know, all the emerging research around emotional contagion. And, you know, it is a real thing how we, if we show up stressed out of our minds, that’s going to really impact those around us.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:42]:

Yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:05:42]:

And if we are calm and composed and constructive, that also has a significant impact on those around us.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:51]:

And dare I say, is that since it’s neuroscience, it could be even if people don’t show up, like they could be masking the fact that they’re really stressed, but people can sense that they’re stressed even though they’re saying, oh no, you know, everything’s under control or whatever. Yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:06:07]:

Oh, absolutely. And I think the nonverbal communication tells us far more than the verbal.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:14]:

Yeah. Interestingly, you talked about flourishing at work, and we’re going to talk about intergenerational stuff, but flourishing at work and you’re talking about like self-leadership, that’s what I talk about in my book, Thriving Talent. So it is, it’s all about thriving at work and it’s about, you know, helping leaders to create the conditions But one of the, like, half the chapter on leadership is about self-leadership. It’s about leading yourself, knowing your emotions and the impact that you have on others and how to be a more conscious leader. So you’re definitely speaking my language.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:06:46]:

Brilliant. I cannot wait to get my hands on the book and I will be there at the launch for sure.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:52]:

Thank you. Thanks so much. So today we’re talking about not necessarily the emotional intelligence that you mentioned there, but more intergenerational. So can you talk to me a little bit more about like what brought you to that? Why? What kind of piqued your interest in that area?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:07:11]:

Yeah, sure. So I have been researching and writing and obsessing over this topic for over 10 years now, Aoife, and I— it really started in my time in Deloitte. As you know, professional services, the model is you hire in lots of grads. And I was really starting to notice some interesting trends with these bright, young, ambitious graduates. And one of the tools we would have used in our work was Edgar Schein’s Career Anchors Model. And for listeners who aren’t familiar with that, it’s looking at, you know, what is most important to you in a career from a values perspective in particular. And it’s quite a, you know, a high level, as with all of these types of psychometrics. It’s, it’s a useful frame.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:07:59]:

And I started to notice some really interesting trends. So what was coming through from these bright young graduates was they were scoring really high in two of the, the anchors. One is pure challenge, so lots of responsibility, lots of challenge, lots of, you know, interesting diversity, diverse activities in your work, which you would expect from bright young graduates. But the second one that kept coming up was work-life balance.. And they are quite uncomfortable bedfellows if you think about it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:31]:

Yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:08:31]:

All this responsibility, all this challenge. Oh, and you want a life. And we probably hadn’t seen that with it. So that would— they would have been millennials at the time. So my generation, Gen Xers, we typically wouldn’t have seen those come together, those two anchors. And it got me curious and I said, you know, this generation coming through, if we want to get the best from them, we do need to understand them, and we need to— they— there’s different drives and motivations at play here, and I want to get under the bonnet. And under the bonnet I got, and I did my doctoral studies, and I looked at 3 professions. I looked at engineers, lawyers, and accountants, um, and actually there was very little difference between the professions, um, in terms of how can we really get the best from this powerful generation, young generation, in the workplace.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:09:24]:

So that’s really got me started on the road, and that work was published as— I developed a framework, was published as part of a book, Managing Professionals and Other Smart People. And then, um, luckily for me, a new generation emerged with a whole other set of needs, Gen Z. Um, and I continued on the road. And as I’ve sort of developed the work, I’m more interested now not on zoning in on particular generations but taking an integrated approach. So now for the first time in working history, we have 3, 4, if not 5 generations side by side. And how— this is a fantastic opportunity. How can we really get the best and leverage the strengths of people at all different life stages? Yeah. So that’s really where I’ve taken the work.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:10:15]:

And I go into organize— I have my own business psychology practice 2 days a week, and I do a lot of work with organizations globally. And I always look at their intergenerational profiles as a starting point. So let’s have a look at the demographics and what strategies can we put in place to really make the most of this, this great opportunity when we have people at all these different life stages working side by side.

Aoife O’Brien [00:10:42]:

There’s so much, Mary, that I want to unpack from what you’ve said. So I suppose the first thing is this idea of for the first time. So I’m a Gen Xer as well, so when we enter the workforce But basically what you’re saying is we were all about the challenge, but we didn’t, we maybe had less of an awareness or less of a drive for that balance, maybe because we didn’t know about it. And so that was the first thing that I took. And then the second thing is this idea that the Gen Y or the millennials are the first generation to say, hey, I want all this challenge, but I also want to have a life. I want to have balance. Is that where this perception comes from, that they’re lazy, that they don’t want to work that much, and, and causing maybe a little bit of conflict as well with the older generations?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:11:32]:

Absolutely, Aoife. It’s really interesting you, you mentioned the millennials. The two generations that clash the most in the workplace are Gen X and millennials.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:42]:

Oh, interesting. Yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:11:44]:

Because even though we’re the closest in age, yeah, we have grown up in very different worlds. I mean, one of the key differentiators or the key factors here is the digital divide. So Gen Xers, we remember life before mobile phones, the age of distraction, you know. Yeah. And it was a very, it was a very different way of living.

Aoife O’Brien [00:12:09]:

Yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:12:09]:

So that’s one of the key differentiators. And the second one is parenting. And how people have been brought up. And you mentioned there, Aoife, yeah, the work ethic. Gen Xers typically have Boomer parents, so they would, you know, you work hard, you earn your stripes, promotion by tenure, you know, that sort of work ethic mentality. And I think Millennials are sort of looking at their parents going, gosh, I don’t want that life. Or I look at typically my father where, you know, he’s so stressed, or Do I want to go down that path? And there’s more to life. And there’s also all of that entitlement and, you know, the helicopter parents.

Aoife O’Brien [00:12:52]:

Participation medal.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:12:53]:

And exactly, everyone— Bruce Tolgan, he does a lot of good work in this space. His seminal text is, you know, everybody gets a trophy.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:04]:

Yeah. So something, Mary, that I’ve seen is, you know, we all see the headlines with the different generations in the workforce, and it’s kind of like they’re they’re almost trying to pit us against each other and, and exacerbate a conflict that exists or doesn’t exist. But the challenge I have is when I was doing my master’s, what they put forward during that time was the idea that it’s not that we’re different, it’s that— how do I articulate this— that we’re not so fundamentally different, it’s that we have different perspectives. And so I, with a lot more years experience, I can look at someone who is a millennial or a Gen Z or an alpha and think they’re so different to me, but actually I was the same as they are at that age.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:13:54]:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a really insightful observation and that is certainly part of all of this work and research, which is, and it has been critiqued, the intergenerational frame, if you like, It is heavily influenced by life stage. So somebody who is younger and at an earlier career stage, for example, will have— we know has lower levels of emotional intelligence because that develops over your lifespan, peaking about mid to late 40s. So you’re right in the heart of it, Aoife, you’re at your EQ peak. Good to know.

Aoife O’Brien [00:14:34]:

Yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:14:34]:

So I think certainly that that has a role to play. And, you know, typically every generation sort of looks down or, you know, frowns upon the one coming up behind it. And so in my work, and one of the reasons I decided to do academic research, there’s so much pop psychology out there and stereotyping. Yeah. And I wanted to get some, you know, good grounded evidence to show what are some of the trends that we’re seeing, the undeniable trends, like for example the digital divide. So we have digital immigrants and we have digital natives. Yeah. Um, parenting has really shaped, um, the generational behaviors at work.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:15:21]:

So, and it’s not to say that every Gen Zer is great with technology or every baby boomer doesn’t know how to use Instagram. You know, it’s— we have to be really careful that we don’t assign or assume. Yeah, but there are certainly, I think, interesting trends for us to be aware of, um, if, if we are managing intergenerational teams. And a lot of it is about just building your awareness and your understanding, um, and the need to flex and adapt your approach. As I often say, Aoife, if you take a 24-year-old and a 48-year-old, like, they have grown up in really different worlds. In terms of what’s happening even on the geopolitical stage, what’s happening in the, um, in with technology, with parenting. There’s so many factors that have shaped the behaviors of a 24-year-old and a 48-year-old, and they— I think how we need to flex and adapt our approach, um, when we’re dealing with people at different life stages particularly for line managers, I think it’s a really important skill to be aware of.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:34]:

Yeah, it’s probably not something that we even consciously think of. Like, I’m thinking, you know, you mentioned earlier about the technology and stuff like that. I’m thinking we had dial-up internet. If someone lifted the phone, it cut off your internet connection. You know, there’s not that many people— well, not that there’s not that many people, like, there’s— but there’s a certain generation who can relate to that. And there’s a certain generation who’ll be like, what? And then they’re asking the question. And if you’re watching this on YouTube rather than listening, it’s like, why do you go like this when you’re taking a photograph? Because now we take a photograph like this, you know, and it’s, it’s all of these things that we get. And the dialing up the phone, the rotary phones, like when you mentioned earlier, I was like, oh, I have to talk about the rotary phones that we grew up with.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:21]:

The landline versus the mobile. And it’s the boys have to There’s just one phone, Mary. It’s just one phone and it’s called the phone. Yeah, it’s called the phone.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:17:31]:

Who even has a landline anymore? I mean, like, I remember I was telling my daughter this when the boys had to ring the landline and, you know, God knows who was going to answer it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:41]:

Oh yes, of course. Yes.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:17:44]:

Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:44]:

Yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:17:45]:

It was the difference.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:46]:

Like, who’s that? Who’s that? Who’s on the phone? Who are you talking to? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I remember that. And I did have a question that I was going to come to, but it’s completely escaped my mind now. But I am really curious about that, you know, if it’s— if there are— from everything that you’re saying, and it’s, you know, we’re not stereotyping people, but I think we do tend to be like, oh, if it’s an older person, then they’re not going to be that savvy with technology. And if it’s a younger person, they’re not going to have the emotional skills or they’re not going to have enough experience to be able to deal with certain things. How can— like, is that narrative true? And if it’s not true, how do we move away from it?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:18:30]:

Yeah. And it’s, it’s so interesting because that tends to be very much a deficit approach that is widely used where people look at the gaps. I prefer— now, I’m a positive psychologist, so I prefer to frame it in What are the strengths that each generation is bringing? I mean, I think baby boomers are such incredible wisdom, and Professor Dorothy Leonard in Harvard talks about the deep smarts of the boomers, which is as close as we can get to wisdom. All of that tacit knowledge, experience, even in terms of supporting resilience on the team, you know, having that sort of older, wiser person that people can go to that sort of steady, that steadies the ship. Yeah. So I think boomers bring that great wisdom experience. Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:21]:

I was just going to say, Mary, I’m thinking in that situation, like if you have something where you’ve really messed up, you’ve really messed up at work, and as a younger person, it feels like the end and you’re like, I’m going to get fired for this and I can’t tell anyone. It strikes me with that level of wisdom and experience that people have, they’re like, well, I’ve done that 10 times in my career and I’m still here. Like, they’re the kind of person who can maybe reassure you about something like that.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:19:52]:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, you know, the studies show that boomers are the preferred mentors of millennials, which is really interesting. So it’s almost like you skip over us, the Gen X. Yeah, yeah. I go to the boomers. So yeah, I think that mentorship and that wisdom and experience and support and sort of level-headedness that you get with, with the boomer population is really important. And then if we go to the other end of the, the, um, the workforce, our Gen Zs, and, um, I think the tech savviness and, you know, just that innovative and create the creative mind saying, why are we doing it this way? Why don’t we do it, you know, in a much smarter way? And I also, what I love about Gen Z is they challenge, like they’re not afraid to challenge and to ask the hard questions and, you know, walk into the CEO’s office and say, I think we should be doing this.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:20:56]:

There’s a confidence that I think other— we haven’t seen in other generations.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:01]:

Yeah, there’s— I mean, there’s a couple of things I want to pick up in relation to what you’re saying with that. Um, can we maybe touch on the more difficult one now, which is about the— how they challenge stuff and, and the sense of entitlement you kind of touched on earlier? And, and what I’m seeing, and this is probably influenced by media, is that they’re they’re not that they’re demanding promotions, but they think that they should be promoted much more quickly than what the reality normally is in that situation, or they think they’re better than they are. Is this to do with the, like, participation medal? Is, is it an inflated sense of ego? Like, what’s going on with that?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:21:41]:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, I, I like the term, um, that the younger generations are referred to as Generation Now. Want the promotion now, the pay rise now, the training now, everything is instant gratification. Instant gratification, exactly.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:59]:

Is that because of how, like, they would be the digital native, so everything is immediate? Whereas when we were younger, if you want to get somewhere and you don’t know where you’re going, you have to get a physical map and try and figure out your own way rather than have Google Maps tell you exactly how to get there.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:22:16]:

Yeah, absolutely. That’s exactly it. The instant gratification, the access to everything at your fingertips. Now, Stephen Stein talks again, does some work in this space, and I really like his philosophy, which is let’s not focus on what the differences are, but why the differences exist.

Aoife O’Brien [00:22:36]:

Oh yeah, yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:22:37]:

So if you do have someone on your team that’s like, I deserve that promotion, I want that pay rise, exactly as you’ve done there, to sort of step back and go, well, actually, they’ve grown up in a world where they have had so much instant gratification. I mean, there’s no such thing as boredom anymore. Like, it’s, you know, everything is just so— like, if you even look at, you know, YouTube Shorts, everything is just coming at you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:02]:

Yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:23:02]:

Um, and there’s also— we know levels of narcissism have increased, and in psychological terms, that relates to that feeling of entitlement, you know, it’s all about me. And again, if we peel that back, where is that coming from? It’s coming from a lot of helicopter parenting, snowplow parenting, you know, clearing the way. You will have no adversity. I am one step ahead of you. And there’s another one, Aoife, I came across just last month in The Atlantic, the trailing parent. Have you heard of that one? No, tell me more. So the trailing parent is a trend that is emerging in the US in particular, where parents are following their children to university and they’re buying apartments adjacent to the campus.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:55]:

Oh, I have— I think I’ve seen some memes about this. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:23:59]:

But Northwestern University in Chicago, in the medical school, a mother was actually coming to lectures with her daughter. And she had to be asked to leave the lecture theatre. So I mean, this is— I mean, it’s sort of, listen, it’s sort of, it’s amusing, but if you actually look at it in a serious light, these are parents who are really over-parenting. Yeah. And, you know, sadly, particularly in the early years, children are not developing the skills of resilience. And what we’re seeing manifest in the workplace is we know there’s a huge need for feedback with the younger generations at work. Feedback, feedback, feedback. But they don’t like negative feedback.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:24:46]:

So it’s, I think, how feedback is delivered is a real, it’s a real skill to give and receive feedback.

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:53]:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:24:54]:

And we know that the first piece of negative feedback can really set a younger person back significantly. Like, they tend to very much zone in on that negative piece of feedback. So yeah, I think how feedback is delivered is, is really important.

Aoife O’Brien [00:25:13]:

Can we pause on that for a minute and just explore like how feedback is given and specifically to younger generations if they are overly sensitive to receiving negative feedback? And I was thinking, could you use a coaching approach approach instead and ask them, but do they have the level of self-awareness to know that something isn’t working out the way it should be?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:25:36]:

So yeah, absolutely. I think a coaching approach is one of the most effective ways to lead, well, all generations, but particularly the younger generations. You know, that, you know, really listening with curiosity, giving them the space to find their own way out, you know, if they have made a mistake, to really co-design the solution with them. So I think a coaching approach is an excellent way to, to, to deal with those situations, because otherwise, I mean, what we’re seeing is, you know, even the impact on mental health and well-being from, you know, people feeling that they’re not being treated fairly at work, that they’re not getting the support they need at work. And when we look at some of the initial studies, Gen— what Gen Z, what’s most important to them in the workplace is supportive leadership. A leader who cares about me, about my well-being, about my career. It’s almost that, almost a parental type leader, you know, that I put my arm around you and I’m here to support you. And that’s a challenge.

Aoife O’Brien [00:26:49]:

Yeah, especially with if everyone’s kind of pushed for time. The other area that I wanted to bring up about this specifically was, is this the generation that’s challenging how we think about work? So if they’re entering the workforce and they’re saying things like, I actually want balance, like, this is not how it should be. And so that’s something that’s really positive that has come from that. Is that because this has happened? Is that where that’s coming from?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:27:19]:

Absolutely. I also think the pandemic has a role to play where it’s opened up a world of hybrid working. I really think it’s doing a great disservice to many, um, different parts of the workforce, younger people being one of the key groups impacted by hybrid working, because what we’re hearing is, and what I’m seeing in my work cross-sectorally, is particularly young graduates coming in and like this tumbleweed in the office, like, who do I learn from? What do I observe? How, where is my community here? So I think it’s, it’s a difficult one that it’s a sort of hybrid and how that’s impacting particularly younger generations at work. But the work-life balance challenge is, it’s a really interesting one. I think for, you know, work is just one part of life now, which for me is a very healthy approach to take. However, I’m hearing, you know, anecdotes. I spend a lot of my time working with surgeons, and I just heard recently, you know, a very significant surgery was taking place and an older baby boomer surgeon was so excited. This was a very rare surgery and he had a young surgeon with him and he was allowing the young surgeon to really develop his skills with this very unique surgery.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:28:50]:

This happened in a European country, it wasn’t in Ireland, and he told me the story that the, the baby boomer surgeon, he said at 5 o’clock the surgeon stopped. He looked at his watch and he said, it’s my wedding anniversary today and I promised my wife I’d cook dinner, so I’m off. And the, the older surgeon sort of laughed and was like, you’re very funny. And then he said, the young surgeon literally down tools and left the operating theater. Wow. I just thought that was a really fascinating case study of The generational challenge. So you could argue for both sides there, right? Yeah. What’s your take on that, Aoife?

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:34]:

Uh, expectation setting is my take. So I’m big into setting clear expectations up front. So with this kind of unique surgery, I imagine you have some idea of how long it’s going to take. Like, I always talk about time and quality, so there needs to be a conversation on both sides. So from the The, the older surgeon needs to say, this is around how long the surgery should take, all going according to plan. And the younger surgeon should offer, I have important plans tonight that I can’t miss. And I need to leave by 5 o’clock. So I think on both sides, there is some sort of a breakdown in communication.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:12]:

They were probably both so excited by the fact that they’re getting the opportunity to work on what is a unique kind of surgery that they can then— I won’t say boast, but they can say, I’ve done this kind of surgery before, or whatever it might be. Um, but yeah, that’s my take. What do you think?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:30:29]:

Yeah, I think that’s really interesting. And, um, that whole communication piece is huge. That, you know, the studies have shown, and my own work over the last decade, that the intergenerational conflict and challenge tends to come in 3 areas. One is communication. It’s huge. The second area is leadership, how people want to be led and managed. And the third is learning, how people want to learn. So communication comes up time and time again, but I also think it shines a light on the different values around work and work ethic and the different drives and motivations.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:31:16]:

A lot of professions were almost vocational in nature, and we’re seeing a real shift there, that, that vocation where you give, you know, above and beyond. Yeah, that actually we’re seeing. And I think there’s— this is quite healthy as well, that people saying, you know, work is just one part of my life. Yeah, and there’s other parts of my life that I really want to prioritize.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:41]:

Whereas other people might have work wrapped up in their entire identity. And then when you retire, it’s like, well, who am I now? Because I’m not doing XYZ. I can feel that myself because I run my own business and work kind of is my life. And I am the brand of my work as well. So it is kind of hard to separate the two a little bit. I try and be as authentic as I can in a work context. But it’s still, it’s still kind of all interrelated. I would love, Mary, to spend a bit of time digging into like some of the solutions.

Aoife O’Brien [00:32:13]:

So if you’re saying that the top problems are around communication, leadership, and learning, what are some of the things that we can do to more effectively lead multi-generational workforce? So from a— maybe let’s touch on the communication piece first, because that’s what we talked about in relation to what, what, um, I was gonna say went wrong. Did it go wrong? What happened in that surgery situation?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:32:37]:

Yeah, yeah. So, so the first step I think is building generational awareness, understanding the different drives and motivations, and even things like the language, Aoife. So I start off all my workshops with a sort of a fun pop quiz around Gen Z slang. So do you know—

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:00]:

Can you share some examples? Yeah, because I probably won’t know the answer.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:33:05]:

Actually, I was with a room full of over 100 dentists recently, and my book that I published last year, Emotional Intelligence and Dentistry, I started by looking at emotions and sharing some of the Gen Z slang around emotions. So let me try you out, Aoife, see do you know any of these? Do you know Do you know what cooked means? Cooked. If you’re cooked, do you know?

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:31]:

No.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:33:31]:

See, I live with young teenagers, so I think everybody knows this. No, actually, none of the roomful of dentists didn’t know that either. If you’re cooked, it means you’re mentally and emotionally exhausted.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:42]:

Like, I’m cooked. Okay, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:33:44]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. If somebody is soft, it’s tender, open-hearted. Okay. If you need to touch grass, Do you know what that means?

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:55]:

Like get grounded or something?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:33:57]:

Yeah, exactly. Typically used when teenagers are gaming and they’re getting a bit agitated. You need to touch grass. You need to take a break. You need to pause. Ideally go into nature. Yeah. And then with things like rizz, which is charisma, you know, you’ve got rizz.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:15]:

I did hear that because that, I think, was an internet sensation at some stage. And so I found out what that meant.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:34:22]:

Yeah, IKR, I know, right?

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:24]:

Oh, like, I know, right?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:34:26]:

Like that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. And the most used Gen Z slang word in the US, this would have been 2024 now, was menty B. Do you know what menty B means?

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:39]:

No. Is that meant to be or I don’t know.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:34:43]:

M-E-N-T-Y B. It’s having a mental breakdown. But it’s used in the context, I’m having a mentee be doing my assignment, or I’m having a mentee do my homework. But I think it’s interesting, and I always say to groups, like, it’s a little bit of fun as well, but I say, do you need to— do we need to know this? Actually, we do, because when you look at the social psychology research behind slang— so each generation has its own slang. So the boomers, like, groovy, whatever the boomers. But Gen Z slang, when we look at its origins, it’s much more abbreviated than previous slang, and It’s coming from LGBTQ+, Black Lives Matter, and there is, I think, a responsibility, particularly if you’re managing, you know, teams of younger Gen Zs, to really start to build your awareness of their language, their communication style, what’s going on in their world.

Aoife O’Brien [00:35:41]:

Yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:35:41]:

And the platforms. I mean, when I send my daughter a WhatsApp, she’s like, you’re such a dinosaur. Nobody uses WhatsApp, Mom. You know, it’s Snapchat. It’s, you know, getting on the platforms. It’s under— it’s building our understanding of where they’re communicating, what’s important to them, how they’re using technology.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:03]:

But they’re also, dare I say it, putting out the highlight reel, which I suppose a lot of us are. But I think there’s this movement more towards this is the reality behind what you see on social media. But they also— the impression I get, and we have touched on this on the podcast before, I’ll put a link below to the episode that I did with Jen Maher in relation to loneliness and especially college-age students feeling this sense of loneliness. But what I was going to say is a lot of the communication I think that they had growing up was through text. And what we would have had was the rotary phones. You know, we were actually speaking with people on the phone, not communicating over text. That would have been sending letters, which I did, which is a different way to express yourself. But when you’re, you know, when you’re present with someone else, you’re having a conversation, you’re not necessarily texting on the phone.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:36:56]:

Absolutely. And it’s interesting you mentioned that dissonance between the me that I put out on my Snapchat or my Instagram, my TikTok, and then what’s really going on for me. And that’s one of the reasons why we’re seeing the highest levels of depression, anxiety, stress among Gen Z. We’re seeing the highest— the lowest levels of stress tolerance of any generation so far.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:21]:

Yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:37:22]:

And we’re also seeing this generation are exhibiting the highest levels of loneliness, as you’ve mentioned. You’ve talked about that before. So they’re the most connected digitally.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:33]:

Yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:37:33]:

But they’re the loneliest generation because they’re not having, you know, meaningful in-person relationships. So there’s a lot, there’s a lot in that. And back to if you asked about solutions, you know, having emotionally intelligent leadership in our organizations. And I would draw on the work of Dr. Martin Newman. I use the emotional capital framework, which looks at 10 core skills of emotional intelligence. And if I were to select 3 of those, I think, to lead an intergenerational workforce in a really positive, effective way. I think the first one we’ve mentioned already is self-awareness.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:38:15]:

It’s about leaders being really aware of their impact, of their own emotional states as well. I think the second one I’d call out is empathy, and that’s again listening, understanding where people are coming from. If you have someone on your team that’s looking for a lot of feedback and a lot of attention and your time and reassurance. To think about, they’ve grown up in an education system and a parenting system where they’ve got, they’ve got so used to having that, and that’s essential for them to really thrive and flourish in the workplace. The third area I draw on is optimism and resilience. So leaders who are, who are role models in— if we know that one of the biggest challenges for Gen Z is their mental health at work and their mental well-being, that we have leaders who are resilient, who are optimistic, who are constructive, and are managing their own well-being in a positive way. So they are role models. Yeah, because I think younger generations are always looking, and they’re, they’re looking ahead and they’re going, do I want to be that person who’s— where I’m just thinking of my Deloitte, you know, looking at partners going, do I want to work 14 hours a day and all this risk and responsibility.

Aoife O’Brien [00:39:33]:

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. I think we’ve, we’ve touched there, Mary, on the communication and the leadership. I’d love to talk about this idea of learning and how we learn differently. Like, this to me could be an entirely different podcast episode. But what I’m seeing in terms of the shift of learning is previously it was classroom-based, it was like module-based. And now it’s much more about micro-learning moments.

Aoife O’Brien [00:40:02]:

AI has the knowledge that we need, but it’s, it’s, it’s the judgment and the discernment about how to use the information that AI is giving us and, and learning while you’re doing the job and taking time to reflect and things like that. Is that what you’re seeing out there or any additional thoughts or challenges in relation to how different generations learn at work?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:40:27]:

Yeah, well, I think one of the defining features of this, Aoife, is attention span. Yeah, attention spans are now about 7 seconds. So this kind of like this notion of— for anyone listening to this 45-minute long podcast episode, well done, we’re sticking with it. Um, but I even find it myself, like, my attention—

Aoife O’Brien [00:40:50]:

yeah, yeah.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:40:50]:

Oh, do you notice that?

Aoife O’Brien [00:40:51]:

Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, yeah, it’s bad. And, you know, So again, each to their own, to probably to do their own research to find out what’s going on and how to fix that. But yeah, totally. You could be watching something and you’re like, you just reach for the phone out of habit. Yeah. Get distracted. We distract ourselves.

Aoife O’Brien [00:41:09]:

That’s the other thing I think.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:41:10]:

Yes, we really do. So it’s exactly as you’ve said, I think it’s about the microlearning, really short, sharp bursts, very practical, really embracing technology in the learning. And I mean, I work in the university sector.

Aoife O’Brien [00:41:25]:

Big.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:41:26]:

I mean, AI is a huge challenge for us, and I think being smart about it and how can we really embrace it in a way and make, you know, make really positive use of AI in our learning. But certainly, I think that the notion of many of us would have grown up in a time where you do your 3 days off-site. Yeah, I think all of that is completely redundant now. Yeah. It’s short, sharp, very laser-focused content, embracing technology.

Aoife O’Brien [00:41:58]:

But I think it needs to be. If I think of some of the training that I’ve done, like, some of it has really stuck with me, but it’s finding a way to apply what you do outside of the workplace to what it is you’re doing every day. And if you’re doing the stuff every day, and instead of going separately to learn something, it’s like, how do I learn while I’m doing something, and AI, I think, can facilitate that.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:42:23]:

Absolutely. However, I, you know, there’s still the human skills that are needed, and I think, yeah, and so much of that is about, I think, having strong mentors. And that’s again one of the most effective strategies for leveraging the strengths of an intergenerational workplace is mentoring, be that the traditional mentoring, or I love the concept of reverse mentoring, reciprocal mentoring, like having people from older and younger generations really learning from each other.

Aoife O’Brien [00:43:01]:

Mary, anything else that you want to add before we wrap things up here?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:43:05]:

No, I think we’ve done a really nice sort of helicopter overview of the challenges, but also some of the, the opportunities and solutions. To really get the best from having people at all different life stages in a workplace. And oh yeah, one final thing, Aoife, I’m a huge believer of intergenerational friendships.

Aoife O’Brien [00:43:29]:

Oh yeah, I love that idea.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:43:31]:

Yeah, yeah. And there’s again studies to back this up, and I’d encourage anyone, everyone listening to think about maybe broadening out, you know, do you have a friendship group that has people from older generations and younger generations? Because I think there’s a lot to be gained from that as well, not just sticking with our— we tend to, Gen Xers, we tend to kind of stick together in our tribes. But I certainly have some amazing baby boomer friends, and my mentor is a 26-year-old occupational psychologist. So I’m a big believer in reverse mentoring.

Aoife O’Brien [00:44:07]:

I love that. And the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast: what does being happier at work mean to you?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:44:13]:

Being happier at work, and I’m going to refer back to an amazing podcast you did, number 272, with Dr. Mark Fabian talking about self-determination theory. I’m going to zone in on one aspect of that, Aoife, because for me it is all about that relatedness, that the social connection at work. It’s about really, we are tribal people after all, and I think really developing strong networks, strong relationships at work is for me where the magic happens, being happier at work.

Aoife O’Brien [00:44:48]:

Brilliant, love it. And if people want to reach out, if they want to find out more about what you do, what’s the best way they can do that?

Dr. Mary Collins [00:44:55]:

So the best platform for me is LinkedIn, Dr. Mary Collins on LinkedIn, and I’d love to connect with people.

Aoife O’Brien [00:45:04]:

Brilliant, thank you so much for your time. I really, really enjoyed this conversation, and I love how we got into here’s some of the challenges, but also the opportunities as well. So thank you.

Dr. Mary Collins [00:45:13]:

Great. Thanks so much, Aoife. And I’m looking forward to your book launch.

Aoife O’Brien [00:45:17]:

That was Dr. Mary Collins talking about how to manage an intergenerational workforce. I would love if you got involved in the conversation. Let me know what you’re going to do differently after listening to today’s episode. You can let me know directly on podcast@happieratwork.ie or get involved in the conversation over on LinkedIn. Don’t forget, there’s a bonus episode coming on Monday where I share my key takeaways and strategies for implementing what we talked about today.