303: Laziness at Work: Is It Leadership, Environment, or Personal Choice?

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:01]:

I have a genuine question for you, and I want you to be really honest with me about the answer, because I’ve been writing a few opinion pieces recently on the idea of quiet quitting and how it’s more of a systemic issue and we need to look at engagement from the organization perspective rather than the individual and the kind of conditions that we’re creating for them. On today’s episode of the Happier at Work podcast, I’m your host, Aoife o’. Brien. By the way, on today’s episode, I want to explore this issue of whether or not people are just lazy. Are some people just lazy? This is a concept or a question that came up during the launch that I had of the Thriving Talent book a few weeks ago. We were talking about quiet quitting. We were talking about the idea that at different phases in our lives, we can have different levels of ambition. And so I’ve always been this really ambitious person and found myself in situations where I couldn’t really fulfill my ambitions and I couldn’t really reach the levels that I wanted to and that I knew I was capable of.

Aoife O’Brien [00:01:12]:

That kind of got us talking about this idea that, well, there are different phases. I don’t think I was saying I don’t think I’ve reached the phase yet where I’m ready to kind of pull back. I have done stints of travel where I haven’t worked at all, but I don’t think I’ve been in a working situation where I’m like, it’s okay to coast or it’s okay to do the minimum or whatever it might be. And so we were kind of talking about those different ideas. And you can look at it from a few different perspectives, but I really would love to know from your own perspective, are some people just lazy? Are some people just coasters or some people just not interested in work? They obviously want and need to be paid, but they’re just not interested in work. And is that an individual thing? And I think from my own perspective, because I’m such a high achiever, such an overachiever, the thought never crossed my mind that someone, some people are just not that interested in graft. They’re not that interested in getting work done. They’re not that interested in contributing whatever it might be.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:12]:

The thought I think never crossed my mind, and I got pushback on that to say they are everywhere. There are so many people who are not interested in working. So from you, I would love to know, what’s your experience of this? Now we can have a look at the other side of that for a minute and give those people the benefit of the doubt and say if is the issue them or is the issue us? And what are we doing to make sure that they are equipped to do their best at work? And again, we can bring this back to the thriving talent framework. So have we created an environment where their values align with our values? That the values of the organization are being upheld, that people are being held to account for both living the values, they’re being recognized for living the values, but they’re also being held to account and penalized in some way when they’re not living the values. And it’s really clear to everyone what the values of the organization are. What kind of behaviours are going to be tolerated and what kind of behaviours are not going to be tolerated? You know, have we created that environment and are we calling people out? If the behaviour of not fully working or coasting or sitting back or quiet quitting or whatever you want to call it, if that kind of behavior, behavior is the kind of behavior that’s not tolerated at work, then is that conversation actually happening? You know, and beyond that, just thinking more generally about the culture of the organization and what is that like and is that person fully on board with how things are done in that organization? The idea that comes to mind or the, you know, the, the example that comes to mind in this situation is, and this is obviously a broad generalization, but in the tech world things tend to be fast paced. And if you’re working, say in not for profit or in a government body or a government sector, then things are going to be a lot more bureaucratic. And so if you’re used to being in that bureaucratic organization, decision by committee, not making kind of individual decisions, things may feel very fast paced for you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:26]:

If you’re going into that kind of environment and it’s bit of a mismatch, but on the other side, from thinking about it from the other perspective, if you come from that tech background and you enter an organization and you find it very bureaucratic and slow, again, you may not be able to do your best work. So that’s the culture side of things. Thinking about need satisfaction at work and how are we ensuring that we understand what people’s needs are and that those needs are being met? So are, you know, is the person being recognized for their contribution? If they’re staying late and no one’s saying anything to them, or if they’re really excelling in their role, but they’re not actually getting that feedback to say, listen you’re doing a really great job. And here’s three specific impacts that the work you specifically do has had on clients or, you know, internal colleagues, whatever it might be. If they’re not getting that reinforcement, then maybe they’re going to pull back a little bit on the work that they’re doing. They’re not going to go above and beyond all of that kind of thing. If they’re not getting a sense of autonomy, that’s another one of our universal needs, that we all have this sense of autonomy as a choice and control over what you do and how you do it. If they have a micromanaging boss, again, maybe they’re just going to wait for instruction.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:46]:

They’re not going to take the initiative. They’re just going to kind of sit back and wait for someone to actually explain to them exactly what needs to be done. Or it could even be that they’ve had that in the past. That’s become such a habit that they don’t even see that they’re doing it themselves. A lot of people also have this inner need for growth, so they really want to feel like they’re making progress in what they’re doing. And if they don’t see that sense of progress over time, if someone is not spelling that out for them, or if they can’t see for themselves how they’re progressing, whether it’s in their career, in a project that they’re working on, within the organization, whatever that looks like, if they don’t get that sense of progress, they may be feeling a sense of stagnation. And again, they want to kind of mentally check out of what it is that they’re doing. The third area that might be related to this is strengths.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:41]:

And when people are not working to their strengths, if they are spending too much time not working to their strengths, if they’re spending time doing stuff that feels really hard, then it makes it much easier to avoid that work. So they may stick to the areas that they’re naturally good at, but actually the impact on that is that they’re not doing the work that needs to be done because it feels really hard. So they’re putting it on the long finger. They’re not getting it to it at all. And so from the outside, it looks like they’re being lazy when actually they just don’t know how to do it, or it’s. It’s something that they find too hard. And the thing with this is. And.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:18]:

Well, I suppose across all three of those different areas, the workplace culture, the needs and the strengths Is that we assume that other people are the same as us. We assume that other people have the same needs and motivators that we do. We assume that other people expect the same behaviors we do. We assume that other people have the same strengths that we do. And sometimes we’re blind to our own strengths because they come so easily and naturally to us. So being able to get the best out of people by leveraging the strengths that they have and talking more openly about what each person’s strengths are within a team, I think, can really help that. And getting that recognition for the work that you do and for those strengths as well, I think is really important. The other thing worth noting in relation to strengths is when we work to our strengths, it’s something that really energizes us.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:09]:

It makes us feel good. But when we work outside of our strengths, our energy can be drained. So it’s not just that something is hard to do, it’s that we literally don’t have the energy to do it if we spend too much time working on areas that are not to our strengths. I touched on the idea at the start of different phases of our lives, and I think, you know, when we go through transition periods, I don’t have kids myself, as I mentioned. I’ve done a lot of travel where I haven’t worked at all, and I’ve had that great opportunity. But I don’t remember ever being in a position where I’ve been working, where I’ve not wanted to really do my best, where I’ve not been highly ambitious. I haven’t reached that stage yet, I’m kind of jokingly saying. But I know that when people go through transitions, like having.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:57]:

Having children is one example, or caring for elderly parents, the foot kind of goes off the pedal a little bit. And that’s totally understandable. And I think we need to be aware of that, and we need to acknowledge that. I think that’s perfectly fine. Different people will have different levels of ambition in different phases of their lives, but it’s not that they’re coasting. It’s just that it’s a different level of ambition that they have at that time. I suppose what I want to bring this back to is the idea that some people are choosing to deliberately disengage. They’re choosing to coast, they’re choosing to let their colleagues pick up the slack.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:36]:

But again, we need to think about what kind of environment have we created that they’re able to do that. You know, have they received really clear expectations? Do they know what the expectation of the role is have they been held to account if they’re not meeting those expectations? So are you having those conversations regularly to say this is what the expectation is and you’re not meeting that expectation, therefore we need to do something about that, we need to address it in some way. They may be staying in a job for security reasons, so they’re not, they’re, they’re not necessarily wanting to progress because they’re quite comfortable where they are, but they’re not pushing themselves even though they are capable of doing more. So if we come back to this idea of, of the system and thinking about, you know, is there accountability? Are they being held to account for their behavior? If they’re not delivering the results that we expect, are they being held to account in some way? Is there a level of responsibility that they have? Are those conversations actually happening? Are they? Or are they just kind of getting away with being lazy? Then we have to come back to this idea of poor leadership, and I will address this on a future episode, a future solo episode, is how the vast majority of leaders are not actually trained in how to lead people. When I talk about leadership, I talk about leading ourselves as well as leading others, but most people are not trained in how to do that. I think it’s, or I know it’s 80% of people, from research that has been done in the UK, it’s 80% of leaders have never received any training in how to lead other people. And so we’re expecting leaders just to kind of pick up and know how to address these kinds of issues, but they’ve never been trained in how to address them. I think if we can train leaders in the minimum of how to do this, we can elevate our leaders so we’re not kind of relying on poor leadership skills to address these kinds of issues that need to be addressed at work.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:33]:

Another thing to consider here is, well, what happens if we label people as lazy and are we labeling them to their face and, or are we labeling them behind closed doors? And what actually happens in that situation? Is it that they are spoken about or that they’re not given opportunities because they’re labeled in this way? Even though the issue could be more environmental that they’re not in the right situation for them, if they get labeled at that, then why, why would they be incentiv, actually change? If that’s that label, if that’s what’s associated with them, it kind of becomes self fulfilling. If we’re doing, you know, if we’re labeling them as lazy Then they’re going to live up to that label. So again, it comes back to this question. I wanted to present, I suppose, both sides, because I did get a bit of pushback on that, saying that there are people out there who genuinely don’t want to work. They want to get paid, but they don’t really want to work. But I suppose I presented the other side of, like, what is the environment? And people don’t generally operate in a vacuum or operating as part of a new environment. And is it a response to the environment that they find themselves in, that they’ve become lazy, that they’ve been coasting, whatever that looks like. But I would really like to know, have you been surrounded by these people? And again, I think back to the people that I’ve worked with in the past.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:00]:

You know, I’ve worked with hundreds of people, obviously over the course of my career. Have some people been lazy? Probably, but at the time, maybe I labeled them as lazy. And now looking back, is that they just weren’t in the right environment. And then I’m thinking of others. So I’m thinking, no, that person was lazy. So it’s thinking about that broader picture, but not just labeling them, thinking about, well, how can we address this? Are they being held to account? And how can we create better conditions for them to do their best work? If they’re interested in doing the work, do let me know. You can reach out to me anytime on podcast at Happier at Work, ie. And I’d love to know what you thought of today’s episode and that question of laziness.