314: HR Like a Boss with John Bernatovicz

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:11]:

Do you know your company’s purpose? Does your company even have a purpose? This is a concept I’m exploring in today’s episode with John Bernatovicz. He is the author of HR Like a Boss. And so we dive deep into this idea of purpose, what it means, and how to really communicate that in a clear way and make the link between the activities you do on a day-to-day basis and the impact that you’re having. If you want to get involved in the conversation, I’m most active over on LinkedIn, so you’ll find me there. Feel free to reach out on podcast@happieratwork.ie, and I would absolutely love to hear from you. Here’s today’s episode. John, you’re very welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. Would you like to let listeners know a little bit about yourself and why you do what you do?

John Bernatovicz [00:00:54]:

My name is John Bernatovicz. I’m podcasting from beautiful Northeast Ohio. I have been in my professional career for 30 years. I am the son of Mike and Fredrine Bernatovicz. They were my loving parents. My dad was a CEO and my mom was a watercolor artist, an interesting combination. I think I merged into a creative entrepreneur. I don’t know, maybe something in that regard.

John Bernatovicz [00:01:19]:

I have 2 wonderful kids, Will and Mallory. They’re 18 and a half and 16 and a half. Big shout out to them. And my firm is named after them, Willory is named after Will and Mallory, and we are a professional boutique services firm. We have a distinct specialization in the payroll HR technology space. We serve the human resources and payroll communities in the sense of helping them ensure that they have the right talent within their core functionality, whether that be fractional talent, whether it be direct hires, whether it be interim. And then we also do a fair amount of technology work— selection, implementation, optimization of HR tech and payroll operations. And then I got this silly idea to write a book a few years ago that SHRM published.

John Bernatovicz [00:02:01]:

I know you understand what that feels like. Kind of put my name on the map, so to speak, in regards to recognition. And it became SHRM’s first ever number one new release. It’s called HR Like a Boss. And we built a business transformation service around the concept in the book about how to have a purpose-driven company that’s people-centric, that allows HR to help out create incredibly efficient and scalable processes, ensuring that their employees are productive. And if we do all those things well, we should have a profitable organization that our employees can become more educated on what financial success looks like, and that they can become hopefully wealthier in the process, and that we have HR leaders that are driving business results while making an impact in their communities.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:49]:

I mean, so many different areas, so many different areas I’d love to explore from what you’ve said, but I wonder if in a nutshell you could explain the essence of the book. Like, so if you’re saying, I wrote this book to, to basically, it sounds like, fix what’s going wrong in organizations at the moment and to be able to move towards people-centric. So is there something that is really at the essence of that, that you learned from the, from the process of writing or researching or from your own experiences?

John Bernatovicz [00:03:23]:

Well, I’m sure you can probably empathize having just recently, recently written a book very successfully. Congratulations to you on that. I do believe that in writing the book, you always have an iteration for it. As soon as you write it, you feel like you could have probably modified it or changed it. And when you are fortunate, like I have been, to be selected to do a number of keynote presentations. I’ve had to create a talk track, and I’ve had to tell the story of HR Like a Boss in a wide array of manners. And there’s a phrase that we coined about transforming how people feel at work through the power of human resources. And I’ll rephrase that again or restate it: transforming how people feel at work through the power of human resources.

John Bernatovicz [00:04:07]:

2 specific things happened to me to motivate me to write the book. One is I got really tired as a math nerd and a numbers guy that practices in the field of HR and payroll that this engagement level that I kept seeing from Gallup, the Gallup 12 Survey, just kept getting worse and worse and worse. We were in the low 30th percentile, which meant 2/3 out of every every person, they were not happy, not engaged at work. And I studied what engagement meant and it never felt good that people didn’t really want to be there. I didn’t like that at all. That made me feel horrible. The amount of time we’re going to spend working, just under 77,000 hours of our lives, which is roughly 15% of your entire lifetime you’re going to spend working your whole life. If you live to 80, 15% of it’s to be spent working.

John Bernatovicz [00:04:57]:

The second catalyst to this was the fact that I lost my parents in a very short period of time and I went through this unique grieving stage, and I got this bucket list of items that I created. And at the top of that list was to write a book. For me, writing a book was incredibly challenging because, A, I’d never written one before, nothing probably longer than a 4-paragraph email, and I was not an avid reader. And I started pouring my heart out on this idea of doing HR like a boss. And at the forefront of that, the 2 things that stood out to me is you have to take ownership of what you do and you have to love it in order to do HR like a boss and do anything like a boss, quite frankly. You have to love what you do in order for you to feel engaged in your work. And you have to find an employer that is willing to give back to you the same amount you’re going to give to it. That’s where I think relationships fall short.

John Bernatovicz [00:05:46]:

They’re— they don’t have to be equal. They don’t have to be 50/50, but we got to be in the 60/40 range. We can’t be 80/20, 90/10.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:53]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:05:54]:

Expecting to take more than we give or vice versa. You end up losing yourself in that process. And I just had spoken with so many HR professionals who had felt burnout. They were frustrated. They didn’t have that proverbial seat at the table. And I thought, well, why don’t I just share my thought process, get validation from about 40 other HR professionals? And lo and behold, there was HR Like a Boss in a nutshell.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:18]:

Brilliant. Love that. Just wanted to pick up on something that you mentioned there, and that was about HR not feeling like they had a seat at the table. Do you think that has changed or you think that is changing?

John Bernatovicz [00:06:31]:

I still think it’s a challenge. I still think there are a lot of haters out there for human resources. I’ll give you an example of that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:36]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:06:38]:

I recently traveled to launch another book that we published. A colleague of mine and I wrote Payroll Like a Boss. And I was flying out to Las Vegas and my colleague and I were wearing our Payroll Like a Boss t-shirts. And we got through the airport and through TSA and on the plane and walked through Las Vegas and all this stuff. And we got so many, hey, love the shirt. That’s awesome. Payroll, amazing. And this is from the general population.

John Bernatovicz [00:07:03]:

This is not people in payroll. This is a random guy sitting next to me on the airplane, the person checking me in for my flight, etc. It was really fascinating. And then on the trip home, I dirtied up my Payroll Like a Boss t-shirt, so I wore my HR Like a Boss t-shirt. And I swear to you, I get on the plane and this young stewardess looks at me and goes, you’re not allowed on this plane. HR is no fun. We’re gonna have fun on this flight.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:29]:

Oh, wow.

John Bernatovicz [00:07:30]:

And I thought to myself, wow. Do people look at human resources drastically differently than they look at payroll? Payroll is about getting paid.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:38]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:07:39]:

But the actual function is behind the scenes. You probably don’t even— a lot of people don’t even know who their payroll department is made up of.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:46]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:07:46]:

The only time that you do is when you don’t get paid right, or you add a spouse to your deductions, or you want to increase your 401. But HR is front and center for a lot of things that happen to you in your career, especially if you don’t do things right.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:00]:

Office. Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:08:01]:

They’re like the police department, or I’ve heard them called the principal’s office. And that’s, that’s tough because I will share this with you. HR professionals innately are wonderful, giving servant people, and they’re doing a job that a lot of people don’t like. And that part was very motivating to me to try to give them some empowerment in the spirit of I love you as a professional. I appreciate the work that you do. Here are a few of my suggestions on how you can do that job better than you’re doing it today to be able to increase engagement level with your employees, to drive results for your, your business, to change outcomes and societal challenges you have in your community. That was the premise of the book and the idea behind it. And it is, it is really frankly outpaced what I ever thought it would.

John Bernatovicz [00:08:53]:

Quite frankly, I did not realize it would be what it is. 3 years far away, I’m still talking about it on a wonderful podcast with you. And it’s changed my professional life in a way that I can’t describe to you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:05]:

Amazing! And in terms of reception, and I’m thinking of— so, you spoke to 40 HR people. But if you think about all of the people beyond those who’ve picked up the book? And has there been any feedback from them in terms of how they’ve implemented or any changes they’ve made or increases in engagement that they’re seeing, even to feel more engaged in their own roles as they’re going about their day-to-day?

John Bernatovicz [00:09:34]:

I did speak with about a couple hundred people. Only was able to quote 40 in the book, just a point of clarification in that sense. Postmortem in writing the book, I’ve read all the reviews on Amazon. Been blessed to have so many wonderful reviews. I read on Goodreads all the good and the bad. Goodreads seemed to be a little bit more intimate. There was a seemed like a bro culture. He’s having all his friends sharing his wisdom.

John Bernatovicz [00:09:59]:

Seemed like the book was about him patting all his buddies on the back, and that’s all good. I love the feedback, and I appreciate it. And I’ll hopefully get a chance to write a part two of HR Like a Boss. We’ll see if that comes together with my publisher and I. But in the sense of what I’ve heard from people is. There’s a couple, and there’s one in particular that I’ll think of. I won’t name names, but executive leader in human resources working for an organization didn’t have a great appreciation for the work they were doing, was always feeling like they were swimming upstream, they were climbing uphill. And finally, something happened and their job was eliminated.

John Bernatovicz [00:10:37]:

I don’t know whether it was personal for them or it was a true business challenge. That they had to make some cuts. And they vacillated around looking for a new job, was going through some other unique challenges in their life, and then decided to start their own business. And quite frankly, gave me way more credit for them starting their own business than I deserved. And now is flourishing in that company and gives me again way more credit. Connect with them on the regular about challenges or website design or whatever the case might be. It was really a beautiful story of someone that felt a connection to the concept of the book, really had been delivering that inside of their employer. Their employer didn’t value it to the point that maybe others might have, or never really had.

John Bernatovicz [00:11:24]:

They probably had a misperception of human resources for whatever reason it might be. And now they’ve taken the— literally the bull by the horns, and they’re taking ownership, and they’re loving what they do. They’re literally owning their job because they own their own business. And it really made an impact on me that the work that I did in writing the book really made a difference. And I’ll end with one last common point that I think about all the time. When I started writing the book, it was very therapeutic for me, and it was a selfish exercise, if I’m being honest with you. But over time, I pivoted to making sure that the book that I wrote, it changed one person’s life. If I could change one person’s life in the spirit of that book, then that has been a success.

John Bernatovicz [00:12:08]:

I take the same kind of mindset when I go and do keynote presentations in front of whatever size crowd I may have. Can I connect with one person to be able to help them reframe how they look at their job, reframe how they look at their role, reframe how they look at the opportunity that human resources has on a business, on its employees, on the community? And by doing that, I’ve had a lot of other stories that this show maybe doesn’t have time for me to share, that the book has made a difference in people’s lives.

Aoife O’Brien [00:12:36]:

And it makes me feel, it makes me feel incredibly proud Yeah, I can, I can totally relate because the book that I wrote, Thriving Talent, is— it is kind of that mix of therapeutic because I’m able to share my own experiences, but also present it in a framework that I hope people find really useful and that they can take from the things that I’ve learned, from the things that I’ve studied, from the things that I’ve implemented, and apply it to their own situations as well.

John Bernatovicz [00:13:06]:

Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:06]:

There’s a few things coming up for me here, John, and one of them is that sense of not feeling appreciated at work. I don’t think that’s unique to HR, but I think probably HR feel it especially so because they’re the ones who are trying to advocate for the employees or should be advocating for the employees in the organization. And when you feel underappreciated in any role that you’re doing, I think it makes it much easier to leave that situation and go looking for something else. I’ve never worked in HR myself. I worked in commercial roles for about 20 years and I always, well, mostly loved the work that I did. There were some situations which kind of led me to do what I’m doing now and to eventually to write the book as well. But my perception always was the people side of things, that’s HR responsibility and that’s what HR should be doing. And that, you know, oh, you have a problem with your manager? You go and talk to HR rather than trying to solve those people problems ourselves with the support of HR and being educated by them to understand how to do it most effectively.

Aoife O’Brien [00:14:14]:

So what do you see as HR’s role in an organization like this and how can we appreciate them more and how can we make sure that they do get that seat at the table? Because— You know, like marketing, like finance, like operations, like HR are responsible for the people. So, to me, that’s a huge investment that we’re making in paying people’s salaries, going back to payroll. But actually, we’re not necessarily respecting the function for what it’s supposed to be doing.

John Bernatovicz [00:14:48]:

Major reality check number one for sure. Understanding that a lot of people in human resources got into that job because they love people. And then they get into the role and realize over time— I joke about it in one of my talks— is eventually you end up hating people because you get all the bad stories, you get all the bad eggs, you get all the people that do silly things, and all become— all of a sudden becomes your problem because a manager isn’t equipped on how to deal with themselves. Here’s the simple premise that goes back to what the foundational principles of doing HR Like a Boss— the sections of the book are thinking differently, being different, being better, taking action, making an impact. The last, make an impact, is really something that was very personal to me. But the beginning table stakes of doing HR Like a Boss are to take ownership and to love what you do. And in my mind, I feel like we as human beings, especially in human resources, we have to work on being our best possible self. We have to take care of ourselves.

John Bernatovicz [00:15:43]:

We have to eat right. We have to get our right amount of sleep. We have to find a form of meditation. Because in order for you to do the job of human resources, it takes a lot of emotional energy. And if we’re not in the right shape, if we’re not getting the right amount of sleep, if we’re not in the right clear mind to be able to handle things, it all of a sudden starts to stack up and the pressure becomes enormous. And then all of a sudden, something small becomes something big. And for me, that’s what the book is about. We cannot blame anyone else, a bad CEO, the prior HR manager that was terrible at their job.

John Bernatovicz [00:16:18]:

We have to take ownership of what we’re doing.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:21]:

Hmm.

John Bernatovicz [00:16:21]:

And we have to love what we do. And we, if we do that on an iterative daily basis and we show up and we deliver great results, if our employer does not appreciate that, well then go find one that does, but don’t blame them for it. Don’t blame your bad boss or your CEO or anything else. Just take ownership of your job.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:41]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:16:42]:

And I will give you, there’s 3 words in the English language that I love and hate, and I’m going to give them to you right now. Never say the word but. Always say and. It’s an improv concept. Yes, and let’s carry on the conversation. Let’s keep things going. And then if you’re ever faced with anything that happens in your life, whether it’s good or bad, your response should be, of course. Think about that for a second.

John Bernatovicz [00:17:06]:

You all of a sudden get cut off in traffic and the guy gives you the middle finger. Of course. You end up getting a promotion for all the hard work you do. Of course. Somebody says something terrible to you that’s really mean and cuts you to the core. Of course. Because those 2 words allow you to accept what’s happening and gives you the sense that I’m in control. I’m not going to let the tail wag the dog.

John Bernatovicz [00:17:30]:

And of course, you’re going to have things that are going to happen to you that are bad or good.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:34]:

Mm-hmm.

John Bernatovicz [00:17:34]:

And it’s important for you to accept those things, look at them as a gift, and create the perception in your mind that you’ve got this.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:42]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:17:43]:

And so there I am preaching, pontificating. I am actually writing a book called Of Course on the concept of equanimity, and that’s a whole nother probably podcast for another time.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:52]:

Yeah, we’ll talk about that another time. But I love this idea. Like, when you first said it, like, I must admit what, what immediately came to mind, especially if someone cuts you off in traffic and you say to yourself, of course, like, it’s almost a sarcastic thing. But if you flip that into Of course that happened, and here’s what I’m going to do. It’s much more about taking control. From everything that you’re saying, John, like, what I’m hearing is agency. I don’t know if that’s a term that you use that much, but to me it’s agency and taking back agency. It’s not about blame.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:24]:

It’s not about, well, I’m in this terrible job, or no one’s appreciating me. Exactly like you say. And it’s not as easy as just finding a job where you will be appreciated, but I think if you take responsibility, take ownership, and at least look for a job, once you start taking those actions and taking back agency rather than defaulting to someone else is in control here and taking back that control, I think it helps us to feel a little bit better about the work situation that we’re currently in just by taking those actions.

John Bernatovicz [00:19:01]:

If you think about it for a second, what can you control? I— you’re driving down the street, you’re in your lane, you’re going the speed limit or a couple miles an hour over, and then all of a sudden this you-know-what cuts you off.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:13]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:19:13]:

You had no control over that whatsoever.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:16]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:19:16]:

You were in a place in time, you were supposed to be there. And in my, in my opinion, if you’re around things that are not going well, or frustrations, or if you’re super believing that everything’s great all the time and you live in that fantasy world of butterflies and rainbows, which is fantastic. In the middle, I think, is a place where of course lands. It’s where I as a human being can understand that things are going to happen around me all the time, not necessarily things that I want to. And it’s really probably not great for everything to go well and for it to be exactly the way you want it to because you don’t really grow.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:51]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:19:51]:

And that’s where the reframing of the word of course. My therapist suggested this to me when I was talking to her about my path down this equanimity journey and Buddhist concepts and finding and dealing with impermanence and all that. It’s just— it’s, it’s settling is all I will say. In the agency that you mentioned, or in the self-control, it’s settling.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:11]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:20:11]:

Because as soon as it happens, you don’t say, oh, fill in the blank, sh blah blah, or gosh darn it, or you blah, blah, blah, or whatever it is. Of course. Yeah, of course. It’s calming.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:27]:

It is creating—

John Bernatovicz [00:20:28]:

no, it is sensibility to yourself. And again, reframing this to back to HR Like a Boss, it’s about controlling what you can control. I can control my attitude. I can control my effort. I can control the words that come out of my mouth. I can control whether I’m going to take ownership of things in my life and be accountable And then, can I find something I love to do? Do I really love dealing with people? Going back to why you got into HR 10, 15, 20 years later, do you truly love people? Because if you don’t, you probably shouldn’t be in the field of human resources.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:02]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:21:03]:

And if you’re not a great human, and I mean that in the sense of you’re angry, you’re frustrated, the world gets you going, you get caught up in traffic, you double middle finger back, you chase them down, you get in a fight in the parking lot. That’s not a great human being. And if you’re not a great human, I don’t think you can be a great human resource professional. And that’s really the mantra for me in trying to reframe this perspective that you have of yourself so then you can serve others.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:29]:

I love that. John, something you mentioned earlier was this idea of impact. I’d love to drill into that in a little bit more detail because this is an area I’m becoming increasingly interested in. From a few different perspectives. So from the perspective of an individual, maybe I don’t know the impact that I’m having at work. I don’t see the outcome of the work. I produce work every day, but I’m not necessarily seeing the impact that that work is having on the people that it’s supposed to serve. So that’s one perspective.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:59]:

And then another perspective is from the leadership and thinking, or very clearly defining what that impact that we want to have as a team is, whatever level you’re looking at. So, you know, whether you’re looking at the top level and it trickles down, or whether you’re looking at the, the team level and you want to decide as a team, this is the impact that we’re going to have, and being really clear and explaining that impact to the people who are doing the work. So any, any thoughts around getting that piece right?

John Bernatovicz [00:22:29]:

And re— rereading my book back— I don’t know how many times you read your manuscript back, but I read HR Like a Boss 7 times, and a while, I was like, come on, guy, this is enough. Like, enough of this HR Like a Boss, these bad dad jokes. They’re not that funny. That’s what the book’s filled with. Anyway, there was a moment I was sitting on my couch, probably mid-spring time frame, early in the morning. My kids were asleep at the moment, and I read chapter 14. The beginning of it was about the HR Like a Boss business plan. I had a friend— shout out to Steve Brown— who wrote several books in the SHRM community.

John Bernatovicz [00:23:02]:

And he said, John, you need to find a way to inspire people by writing your book. So, make sure that you create your anecdotal personal stories, but they also like a how-to. How am I supposed to do this thing called HR Like a Boss? And chapter 14 is the HR Like a Boss business plan. The very first element of that is having a purposeful commitment. And I remember vividly reading that to myself and then saying out loud, that’s not a bad idea. And I actually was like, wait a second, that was your own idea. That’s like the most arrogant thing you could possibly do. And I leaned into that.

John Bernatovicz [00:23:33]:

And what it meant is simply, do you have a purpose in your life? And does your organization create clarity about why it exists to make the world a better place? It’s not about driving profitability.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:46]:

No.

John Bernatovicz [00:23:46]:

It’s about making an impact.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:48]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:23:48]:

And when I started surveying people and doing my talk and honing into this purpose section, what I found was the vast majority of, I’ll call it, publicly traded or for-profit organizations did not have a purpose. Yeah, they were started by money-grubbing CEOs and entrepreneurs just like me that all of a sudden were like, wait a second, I have this successful business, I’m going to give all this money away. It’s kind of like what Bill Gates is doing and Warren Buffett. They built these empires and all of a sudden they have so much money, what am I going to do with it? Well, I’m going to start to solve some of the world’s challenges. I wonder if they would have taken that mindset of having a purpose-driven business back when they founded the companies, how much of an impact they could possibly have, and then finding people that want to work for a company that has a purpose. 8 out of 10 people that are working want to work for a company that has intentionality, that they have purpose around. It’s just not about profit. They just don’t want to work for a company that makes a widget.

John Bernatovicz [00:24:49]:

They want to work for a company that makes a widget that makes a difference in the world.

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:52]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:24:53]:

And that purpose statement is meant to be short, clear, and concise. It can’t be long-winded because we don’t remember those things. We remember Nike’s Just Do It because it’s 3 words. And purpose statements should be very clear and concise. Willory’s is We Empower People. And everything we do in our business is about empowering our staff, empowering our clients, empowering our partners. And we create clarity around that. And then you galvanize people together.

John Bernatovicz [00:25:19]:

So, if you think about this in a concept, if HR can develop this clear purpose statement about the intentionality of the good they’re going to do in the world, they start to hire people around that concept, they start to attract customers that believe in that same concept of doing right in whatever societal issue they’re going to attack, and then all of a sudden they start making more money, then guess what? You have a bunch of happy people that are working in a company that’s making money. So all of a sudden we can give resources to truly attack this societal issue, to really make a difference in the world. Subaru’s done an incredible job with this. If you notice any of their advertisements that you see on television, they’re not talking about the feature functionality of their Subaru truck or car. They’re talking about the impact that they’re going to make on the world by driving their vehicles, which I thought was really fascinating. Find a purpose in your business, make it clear, 4 words or less, and then find a bunch of people that rally around that, whether it’s your people, your community, your customers, your vendors, etc.

Aoife O’Brien [00:26:18]:

Yeah, yeah. Can we explore that in a bit more detail? So I’m a huge believer in that. I think it’s so important. And I hadn’t considered that most businesses were just set up to make money. I assumed that they had some sort of purpose behind them. And I get that maybe some, but are you saying that 80% of businesses were just set up just to make money?

John Bernatovicz [00:26:40]:

Here’s the data that I learned. This is somewhat anecdotal, but there’s also a study out there that I’ll give you where the 80% came from. The only businesses, when I did my straw man survey and I asked, what is the purpose of your company? The only ones that truly had a purpose, not a mission, there’s a difference between a purpose and a mission. To me, a purpose is aspirational, never achieve it. What good are we going to do in the world? How are we going to attack a societal issue like empowering people or solving world hunger, whatever the case might be?

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:10]:

Hmm.

John Bernatovicz [00:27:11]:

A mission is very finite. It’s a beginning and an end. We’re gonna go solve this challenge. We’re gonna build this rocket ship. We’re gonna go to the moon, whatever the case is. But if you go to the moon, how’s that gonna make the world a better place? And what I found is the only companies that have a clearly defined purpose are nonprofits. They typically were founded by people that wanted to attack a societal issue. They began to get a bunch of momentum around it because it was good.

John Bernatovicz [00:27:38]:

It was the right thing to do. And then they built a business around it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:42]:

Okay.

John Bernatovicz [00:27:42]:

Where for-profit companies build a business to make money. And then over time, once they make money, a CEO can only have so many jets and so many country club memberships and so many boats. How do we give this back into the world? And then all of a sudden they reverse engineer this concept. My hope is that for-profit companies will create purpose statements because there’s a data point out there, a marketing agency did it, that 8 out of 10 employees are looking to work for companies that have intentionality around their purpose. They don’t want to just again work for a company that’s there to make money.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:16]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That they want to solve, I suppose, a problem that they care about in the world, whatever that problem is.

John Bernatovicz [00:28:24]:

Truly. Do they really care about it? And if you think about it, it’s just doing good business. Why are we on this earth as an organization? And there’s a lot we could talk about. This is corrupt corporate structures or the, the downfall of enterprise or free will in the spirit of work. There’s a lot of arguments about that in the political landscape. I think business is good when it’s done the right way.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:52]:

Hmm.

John Bernatovicz [00:28:52]:

And I think you have to have a business that’s profitable. And if you don’t have the business— I have an example of this, and this goes back to the tail end of the HR Like a Boss business plans about profitability. One of the most important employees, if not the most important employee you have inside of your company, should be Mr. or Mrs. Net Income. Let me give you an example what I mean by that. I know that there’s people out there listening that have run payroll before and you screwed up someone’s pay, and I know for certainty at 100% you fixed it. It may not have been that exact day, but it was within a day or two of that pay being incorrect, and you immediately fixed it.

John Bernatovicz [00:29:32]:

They were supposed to get paid $742.28 for 40 hours of work, and you paid them for 30 or 20 or didn’t pay them at all, and you fixed it. Do we respond to our organization’s net income level the same way? Do we know what our net income levels are supposed to be? Are they clear what our profitability should be? Do we have a percentage? And when we pay below that, when we don’t hit our net income, is everybody stopping what they’re doing and saying, hey, We didn’t pay Mr. or Mrs. Net Income. And do we respond the same way that we do when we shortfall an employee? No, we don’t. That doesn’t happen. And I think it’s a paradigm shift that we as organizations need to change because we have to have a healthy business in order to pay all those benefits, to retain people, to give you leadership development and training opportunities to become a better human being, to be able to invest back into your business. And to shed off profit for your stakeholders and your shareholders while then at the same time being able to afford the things that employees are going to want, which is expensive.

John Bernatovicz [00:30:36]:

That’s my pontification on the idea of profitability and how to reframe the way that you look at it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:41]:

Yeah. And it moves away from that, like basically operating at a loss for years with the idea that you’re going to have some sort of a future payoff, basically.

John Bernatovicz [00:30:52]:

And there’s an argument to that. There’s a lot of publicly traded companies out there that are doing that. I know there’s an HR tech firm that recently just finally made their first quarter profitability 15 years in, and they’re valued at billions of dollars, which, you know, obviously the tech companies are a little bit different. I don’t, I don’t quite understand that game. I’m in a more of a consulting, try to make money, real money, not fake paper money. And I, I think that that’s pie in the sky. I think those are, those are drastic anomalies. I don’t think that’s the foundation for setting up a successful business.

John Bernatovicz [00:31:27]:

We need a double-digit EBITDA to have a successful, sustainable organization. If you don’t, you’re in trouble. I can attest to that as a business owner. There’s times when you just look around and say, hey, wait a second, what are we doing? We got to make money. And I wanted serve and take care of my people. But at the same time, I can’t do that if I don’t have a business.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:47]:

Yes. Yeah, yeah, that’s so true. Something that, that I jotted down here, John, is the idea of greed. And so when you’re working in an organization— like, this is a conversation that’s come up multiple times for me— but people are working in an organization that lacks purpose, but they themselves are making a lot of money from staying in that organization. And they have to do things that maybe they don’t agree with, but the money is so good and they’ve become accustomed to the lifestyle that that money has created. Now they do eventually leave because they just can’t take it anymore that like they’re doing all these things that go against their value system. The company doesn’t seem to operate for a noble purpose, let’s say. Any thoughts on that?

John Bernatovicz [00:32:31]:

Tough place to be. That big bag of money, that nice house and that beautiful car. I will say this right now, going through this personal experience myself, all that stuff is fleeting. What matters the most is your health and well-being, the relationships you have, and the experience that you get to have on this earth. The money is going to go away. I will, I will share this very personal story with you. I took care of my dad in the tail end of his life. He was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.

John Bernatovicz [00:32:58]:

He had 3 months to live. That was his, that was his prognosis.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:02]:

Hmm.

John Bernatovicz [00:33:02]:

My mom had passed just a year earlier. My dad was very much so grieving her and distraught. And my dad spent 80-plus years of his life pinching his pennies and counting his quarters and having a meticulous checking account. And I’ll never forget talking to him about his major assets. I was also the executor of his will, and he had a car, he had a house, and he had his financial assets. And with the car, he said, just give it to your, your cousin Mark. Just whatever he can pay me for, it’s fine. I’m like, Dad, that’s not like you.

John Bernatovicz [00:33:36]:

He goes, it’s okay, John. Came time for him to sell his house, talked to the realtor, said, Dad, what do you want to sell the house for? He looks at me and says, the money’s not going to be mine, it’s going to be yours and your siblings. Work out the price between them. And then we talked about his assets and what do you want to do with it, how you want to disperse it. And for the first time in his life, he gave a gift to all of his grandchildren, and nothing made him more proud. And it was awesome for me to deposit that money in my kids’ bank accounts. And my dad showed me in that, in his life, that he spent so much time trying to accumulate wealth and that when it was time for him to go, it didn’t matter. And I’m not suggesting to live your life so vicariously and so whimsical that you aren’t able to pay your bills.

John Bernatovicz [00:34:20]:

That’s not what I’m suggesting. But a nice car and a nice house is fleeting, in my opinion.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:25]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:34:25]:

It can, it can come as fast as it can go. But your health, your well-being, the relationships you have, the experiences that you’re able to be blessed to participate in while you’re on this earth— there’s nothing like that. And I would pay any amount of money in my life to play a round of golf with my dad and have that experience once again, because that relationship meant the world to me.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:49]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:34:50]:

And if someone’s there selling your soul or made a deal with the devil At some point, it’s going to catch up to you. That’s all I’m going to say. At some point, it’s going to catch up to you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:58]:

Yeah. Coming back to the idea of purpose and finding that balance, I suppose, between purpose and profitability, is there a way to strike that balance so that the focus doesn’t become all about purpose at the expense of profitability, nor does it become all about profitability at the expense of My suggestion to that is just clarity and communication.

John Bernatovicz [00:35:25]:

We have a 5-pillar business transformation, HR Like a Boss operating plan, however you want to describe it. Purpose is at the top. We then look at how, how centric you are to your people. We talk about having processes that have continuity that you can actually scale the organization. That’s the most boring part of the business plan, but that’s the sexiest part if you want my honest opinion, because The iteration, the 1% improvement, just constantly focus on process, not result, can take a little bit of the pressure off and can really get at issues. Then we talk about productivity. I have a sting against HR. I apologize.

John Bernatovicz [00:35:59]:

You write terrible job descriptions. They’re too long. They’re too legalities. Make them one page. Make the number one thing in that job abundantly clear. Measure that productivity number, whatever it is. Celebrate it when they— then when they achieve it. Hold them accountable when they don’t.

John Bernatovicz [00:36:14]:

Make it abundantly clear. And the last is profitability. I think if you’re abundantly obvious to your organization, your people about these are the things that are important to us, here’s how we’re going to measure them, and they’re intertwined with each other. They’re just not purpose only. They’re just not profit only. They’re just not process. They’re just not people. You have to have a triangulation in some regards that at least in our plan a 5-pillar business strategy, and you communicate that with people and make sure that they understand that they’re all interdependent upon one another.

John Bernatovicz [00:36:45]:

We can’t have a purpose if we don’t have profit. We can’t drive efficient processes if we don’t have competent people.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:52]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:36:52]:

And there’s a super amount of integration. I think that if you get myopic on one, focus only on profit, you lose sight of the— a lot of other items. If you’re only focused on purpose, You can spend a lot of money and not really have a business. You can have more of a nonprofit or no-profit or loss-based business. And there, there’s just a balance between all that that’s super difficult, in my opinion, to be able to achieve over a sustainable time. That’s why most companies don’t make it past year 1. They don’t make it past year 5. They certainly don’t make it past year 10.

John Bernatovicz [00:37:27]:

And if you’re in a multi-generational family business, you get to the 3rd generation, Oh my gosh, all of a sudden that those grandkids are going to screw that thing up one way or the other. That’s what the data says. I’m not suggesting that they will, but the chance of you having a long-term business is not easy. And we as employees need to recognize the fact that, that there’s impermanence to organizations as well.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:50]:

Hmm.

John Bernatovicz [00:37:50]:

And if you’re able to strike a balance of all those moving parts, that’s what makes it so, so difficult because it’s just not one thing. Unfortunately.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:59]:

Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, it’s interesting. Just a note on what you said about job descriptions. I would totally agree with you on that. I think the way job ads are written, they’re not like actual ads. They’re like a description of the job and the way the job descriptions are written are far too detailed. They don’t reflect the reality of the day-to-day.

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:20]:

And even if 2 people have the same job description, what they’re doing on a day-to-day basis could be vastly different. So yeah, it’s— yeah, we need to definitely— something that we need to have a look at. We’ve covered lots and lots of different areas. Is there anything that you would like to cover that we haven’t necessarily talked about today?

John Bernatovicz [00:38:38]:

Well, I have an innate amount of curiosity. I know that you recently went on the tour of the United States, and here I am being a podcast host flipping this around on you. Tell me about your absolute favorite part about being in the United States. Which city? Which experience? What thing did you do that got you going like, hey, wait a second, this isn’t such a bad place, the USA?

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:58]:

I’ve been to the USA multiple times before, so I will caveat that. And New York has always been my favorite city. And after my trip, I went to 9 different cities and it’s still my favorite, New York, hands down. There’s something about the energy there. There’s something about the possibilities. Well, the possibilities, I think in general, in America are incredible. But yeah, New York’s still my favorite. I did my US book launch party at the PwC offices in New York.

Aoife O’Brien [00:39:32]:

So that was a real like pinch-me moment. The people who showed up were people from all aspects of my life. Like someone who I knew from primary school was there, someone who I’d met traveling was there, but I hadn’t seen him in maybe 7, 8 years, and old work colleagues who I’ve known for 20 years. It was incredible.

John Bernatovicz [00:39:52]:

That’s amazing. What borough was that in? What part of New York was it?

Aoife O’Brien [00:39:55]:

Manhattan. Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:39:56]:

Downtown Manhattan. Did you get a good bagel or a New York slice of pizza?

Aoife O’Brien [00:40:00]:

Uh, I had a New York slice and it was amazing. And it was very near where I was staying as well, which was better. And yeah, I had bagels a couple of mornings for breakfast. I love a bagel.

John Bernatovicz [00:40:13]:

You lived it up. All right, that’s fantastic.

Aoife O’Brien [00:40:15]:

I did.

John Bernatovicz [00:40:16]:

I am working on a few projects. This is kind of a shameless plug, if you don’t mind me doing that, just in the sense of some of the work. And maybe you’ll hear the framework of what I mentioned earlier, but we’re working on a coloring book called HR’s Gone Wild. It actually applies to all things inside of business or payroll. We can reframe it, not just HR. Payroll’s gone wild, leadership’s gone wild. It’s basically, it’s a coloring book about 10 or so animals that have incredible leadership qualities, and we use those leadership qualities as a way to make the most of your dash, which is the thing in between your birth and your expiration date. And I think that everyone is a leader, no matter if you’re a CEO or you’re an intern or you’re a kid in 6th grade and you have a couple buddies you’re hanging around with, or you’re the captain of a particular team.

John Bernatovicz [00:41:02]:

I think leadership is the number one most missing element inside of the business, in the business community. I think that there’s executive leaders that are so far outside of their skis and lack the skill set to be able to do the job. And we created this coloring book that follows along with the keynote that I do that’s going to be a lot of fun. We’re going to be launching that in September, which is a ton of fun, something different that my marketing team came up with. A very short read, could take you less than 20 minutes to read it, but if you want to color it probably take you a couple hours. And elephants are one of the animals, and lions is another animal, and ants and eagles— save that for another time. And then I am working on a very unique passion project. I got this motivation and inspiration to write a 3-part book series around things that have transformed my life.

John Bernatovicz [00:41:51]:

I mentioned one of them being of course, which is a 2-word phrase in the concept of equanimity. And I, I love, I love that idea of just rationalizing things that come into your life and create some uniqueness. The other one is this idea of being where your feet are, having this innate amount of presence. I’ve done my best for this 55 minutes to not check my phone and look right in the camera and smile as much as I can, because it’s important for me to be there for you as a podcast host and to create presence as much as I possibly can. And the last one hits on the concept that we talk quite a bit about called Purpose is Paramount. It’s a continuation of the idea of having a purposeful commitment not only in your life but in your friend group, in your community, and in your work. And I’m writing that, and I’ll be showcasing my siblings and my parents in that, that Purpose is Paramount. I hope the book series will be written by the middle part of next year, and then I’ll let my copy editor and everyone else do their fancy stuff, and hopefully we’ll publish them before the end of 2027 or into 2028.

John Bernatovicz [00:42:54]:

That’s the goal. At the same time, I’m trying to run my business successfully. So, if you need any help finding great HR payroll talent or you need help with your getting optimizing or an ROI from your HR technology, find Willory at willory.com. Sorry for the shameless plug.

Aoife O’Brien [00:43:10]:

Excellent! Love it. And John, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

John Bernatovicz [00:43:17]:

You own it and you love it. Simple as that. You own it and you love it. And the last thing I will say on that is just recognize the amount of time you’re going to be spending working. And if you don’t have a sense of ownership of it and you don’t love it, I would encourage you to look in the mirror and find something that you do love to do because you’re just going to spend way too much time doing it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:43:37]:

What are the kind of things that people say when they don’t own it? Like, I’m thinking, um, no one ever showed me how to do that, or my boss is being a nightmare. Like, what are the things so people will recognize it in themselves where they’re not owning it?

John Bernatovicz [00:43:53]:

I think number one, they’re unhappy. They’re unhappy and they blame others for their unhappiness— their boss, their job, their colleagues. I would just go there first and foremost. Secondarily, they lose themselves in their work, meaning that they are not confident. They, they basically are not selling their soul, but they’re giving so much to everyone else that they’re emptying their cup every single day, and by the end of it, there’s nothing left for them to give. And so they go home, and then that perpetualness happens. I’ve heard it and seen it and felt it way too many times. Those two stand out to me quite a bit.

John Bernatovicz [00:44:28]:

And I think lastly, it’s, it’s simply around this idea of finding something that you vibe with, that you flow with, that there’s, there’s an element of it that’s challenging, it’s difficult, but you, you find a way to enjoy that. You love the muck. You, you want to get into the midst of it because you know you’re growing and developing, as opposed to, oh no, I got to go to work today. And, and the, the simplest way for me to look at that— how do you feel Sunday night around 10 PM?

Aoife O’Brien [00:44:55]:

Yeah.

John Bernatovicz [00:44:55]:

When your head hits the pillow, are you like, oh crap, here we go again? Or, oh, that was a fun weekend and I’m looking forward to the week, the week ahead? I think those are all ways that you can reframe if you, if you own it and you love it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:45:07]:

Yeah, love that. Thank you so much for your time today, John. Really, really enjoyed the conversation.

John Bernatovicz [00:45:12]:

Thank you. Keep up the great work. Love the smile and appreciate you very much.

Aoife O’Brien [00:45:16]:

That was John Bernatovicz, the author of HR Like a Boss. We talked all things purpose at work and connecting that with the impact that we’re having in the world. I really hope you enjoyed today’s episode. Don’t forget to leave a rating or a review on your favorite platform, or get involved in the conversation over on LinkedIn, or feel free to drop me a message on podcast@happieratwork.ie. I’d love to hear from you.