322: Build the Career You Truly Want with Wanda Wallace

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:11]:

Would you like to be more intentional about how you think about your career and learn to navigate some of those tricky situations that we all find ourselves in when it comes to work? My guest today on the Happier at Work podcast is Wanda Wallace, and she shares insights from her brilliant new book. I highly recommend it. I’m your host, I’m Aoife O’Brien. This is the Happier at Work podcast, and I really hope you enjoy today’s episode. Wanda, you’re so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. We had the amazing opportunity to meet in person, which was a huge honor and surprise for me when I did my book launch in PwC in New York earlier this year. And it was so lovely to have that opportunity, and you have such a nice energy, and I’m I’m so looking forward to this conversation on the podcast. Do you wanna let listeners know a little bit about you, your background, and what prompted you to write your latest book?

Wanda Wallace [00:01:06]:

Certainly. And thank you, Aoife. It was delightful to meet you in New York and loved having you on my podcast as well. So we’ll— more to continue on that one. So I’m Wanda Wallace. I am a speaker, an executive coach. I do some training as well. I have this passion, absolute deep passion about helping people have more power over the course of their career.

Wanda Wallace [00:01:30]:

I don’t mean power over people. I mean power to execute. And I have this thing about people in the mid-ranks of organizations. They have the hardest job. They’re being asked to lead in a way that’s different than how they were led. And they’ve kind of, you know, the younger generation is expecting it. It’s not going to go very well if they don’t. There’s enormous pressures from above and pressures from below.

Wanda Wallace [00:01:52]:

We talk about that all the time. And we give them no help. So it’s like, that’s just like my driving force here is to help people in the middle not make the mistakes that all of my senior executive coaching clients are now struggling to correct.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:07]:

Okay. Interesting.

Wanda Wallace [00:02:08]:

Here we are.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:09]:

Yes. With your latest book, the focus is very much on careers and kind of navigating that, dare I say, from an individual perspective rather than thinking, oh, how can we train leaders better? It’s kind of addressing that individual and helping them to navigate these kind of tricky situations that we all face. Like, I read the book and I could see myself in a lot of those examples. So, you know, it’s really insightful, it’s really practical as well. So well done for that. But what prompted you to write the book? Like, what are you seeing out there?

Wanda Wallace [00:02:41]:

Well, I’ve, you know, every time you write a book, you do it about 3 different versions before you ever sees the light of day, and this one is no exception. So it’s on third iteration. And that means it’s a lot of years before you figure out exactly what the message is that you want to write and how you want to write it. And it’s really coming from— it is one piece of the puzzle. If I’m in that middle layer, I’ve got to figure out how I’m managing myself, managing my career, managing the perception of my career, managing my network, managing my ambition. At the same time, I’ve got to figure out how I’m helping my team do the same thing for themselves. At the same time, I’m trying to get the work done. At the same time, I’m trying to be creative.

Wanda Wallace [00:03:19]:

At the same time, I’m trying to manage up. So it is one piece of the puzzle that helps people in this mid-rank really excel. And it’s really driven, Aoife, from all the mistakes I’ve watched my executive-level clients make, and then call me and say, I got to course correct from this. How do I do it? So it’s kind of, do we have to keep making these mistakes? Can we make some different ones? Is really the passion behind the book.

Aoife O’Brien [00:03:47]:

Yeah. And what are, what are The big— maybe I’m kind of thinking of this from 2 different perspectives. So either the biggest mistake being like a really massive mistake on an individual basis or the most frequent mistake. So like, what are you seeing? Like what mistakes are people making that they realize when they get to that level, they’re like, I’ve really messed up here and I need to fix it?

Wanda Wallace [00:04:12]:

Yeah, I think there are 3 big buckets to answer your question, but then I’m gonna come back to say what’s one of the biggest mistakes. for making overall.

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:20]:

Okay.

Wanda Wallace [00:04:20]:

But the 3 big buckets that I wanna focus on is people will ask you, where do you wanna go in your career? You don’t wanna articulate that in terms of a role, a seat I want right now, ’cause that seat is likely to be gone by the time you’re ready for it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:36]:

Okay.

Wanda Wallace [00:04:36]:

Or changed or something more exciting or who knows. But you do have to have an answer, ’cause if you don’t have an answer, people can’t help you. So how do you articulate that ambition in a way that is authentic, that allows you to build the network and the support that you need. That is one of the big buckets. Second big bucket is hand in hand with that, you have a brand. And we’ve said that for eons. There’s nothing new about that. How do you identify that brand? How do you articulate it? How do you make it feel authentic? And then once you’ve done that, what do you do with that? Like, how do you go out and talk to people about this in a way that really works? So you’re drawing attention to the things you want people to remember about you, as opposed to, in effect, the gossip about you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:21]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:05:22]:

All right. And then the third bucket is stuff you write about yourself, you know, well, things go wrong. 99% of it is totally outside of your control. There is the 1% that is inside your control. And I am guilty of that today. I get that there are some, but 99% is outside of your control. How you navigate that affects your mood, your engagement, your reputation, your brand, people working with you, everything about you. So the And then the second, the third one is how do you really navigate that? So those are the 3.

Wanda Wallace [00:05:56]:

Your ambition, your future, where you wanna go, your brand, and then how do you navigate the setbacks? You know, including things like you think your peer is trying to sabotage you. So what do you do with that?

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:06]:

Yeah, yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:06:07]:

So that’s what we’re trying to, those are the mistakes that I’m trying to correct. But if I start at the top of the question, I think there’s one overarching mistake we have, and it’s a metaphor, and it’s everywhere. And we, if you think about when we talk about careers, The language is always climbing the ladder.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:25]:

Yes.

Wanda Wallace [00:06:26]:

Okay, climbing the ladder. There’s a broken rung on the ladder. You know, we just have this image of this ladder going constantly. Okay, well, we’ve gotten smarter lately. We talk about climbing a jungle gym or a lattice. Okay. But all of those imply that the steps in a career are equally spaced. They’re even, they’re logical, they’re programmable, and it’s constantly up.

Wanda Wallace [00:06:51]:

Okay, maybe it’s sideways a little bit. but constantly up. And it’s a terrible metaphor. It’s a great metaphor for the first 5 years of your career.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:58]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:06:59]:

And it’s a lousy metaphor for what you’re looking to do for a long-term, impactful career. And I like to talk about it more as a tree, this big, giant, rambling oak tree that has some dodgy branches and some powerful branches. And, you know, sometimes where you want to go, somebody else is sitting there, and you’ve got to figure out how am I scrambling literally around this tree to get the broadest perspective I can get. And that is a much better metaphor for what I think careers are really like.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:31]:

Yeah. And when I read that, it really resonated. I have heard people calling it the jungle gym, the squiggly career, but you’re so right that implies that we’re always moving up. And I think personally, I’m starting to think selfishly for my own career, but also looking outwards at what other people are doing and really honing down, maybe we can talk about this a little bit later, but really narrowing down like, what is it that I’m uniquely capable of doing and how do I execute on that so I can feel really fulfilled at work? And I’m trying to find what that really is for me by looking at my career history, by looking what really lights me up and also being able to articulate that to other people. So, what is the value that I bring to other people? But one of the things that struck me as well while I was reading the book is this idea that not everyone actually wants to manage their career. And we were saying before we started recording that I don’t think I knew of this concept when I still worked in corporate. All I saw was, I want to keep climbing that ladder. I want to keep progressing and progressing.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:39]:

And maybe one of the things I’m coming up against now is thinking, Like, do people constantly want to earn more money? Is that why we want to climb that ladder? Is it a recognition, a prestige thing, which is why we want to continue doing that? So, I suppose bundled into all of those things that I’ve just said is there’s kind of that balance of, I actually don’t really want to actively manage my career and I don’t have time to do it, or I’m not that ambitious. But then on the other side, when someone is ambitious and what they see as recognition Or progression, how do we change that narrative so that by making a sideways move and moving into an area where you’re stronger, that becomes something positive?

Wanda Wallace [00:09:21]:

Right. I am not advocating that everybody try to be at the top of the ladder or at the top of the tree. There’s not enough space for everybody at the top of the tree, and it’s not what everybody wants or what they’re well suited to. And I also believe you want to play to your strengths, of course, but you’re always trying to broaden your capabilities. Just a little bit. I’m not trying to take the things that I’m not great at and turn them into my biggest strengths. But I got to be aware that I have to bring everything up a level constantly.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:52]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:09:53]:

Like, just keep accelerating that. And I’m a big— and that’s a development journey for me. And I really believe that. But I think every leader, and it’s part of how I would have you articulate your brand, is to understand what you value. What you value personally, how you make decisions accordingly, what you value in leaders that you work for. Just articulating that and understanding what those drivers are help you begin to say, how do I know if I’m being successful in my career?

Aoife O’Brien [00:10:25]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:10:26]:

And then I start looking for— so let’s say for me, one of my core values is around building a sense of community, of togetherness, you know, like we solve it together sort of idea. Just, that’s it, just heart and soul of everything that I will do. Well, that means I need to look for jobs that allow me to do that. That means when I’m feeling a little discouraged in my progress, I need to double down on finding a colleague I want to collaborate with for me on something new. And it tells me where I need to look across the tree, not just up.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:01]:

Yes.

Wanda Wallace [00:11:02]:

And that is like, you know, where, who, and it can be project-based. I don’t have to change my role. I can just find a new thing to put in that helps me have that sense of fulfillment. The more you know that, the more I can articulate that, the clearer my brand is, the clearer how it is I’m gonna make decisions, the clearer if you were hiring me, Ife, you would know, oh, that’s what I’m getting in Wanda. Got it. Great. And it’s so true to me. It just gives me an intrinsic sense of value and it’s something I can work on without anybody’s approval anywhere.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:35]:

Yeah. How do you think we shift the general narrative that success and, you know, this idea of success, it’s come up several times on the podcast previously where we’ve said you really need to define your own, you know, or really have your own definition of success, you know, and what that actually means to you. And I think It’s hard in a society where we live in where success generally means you’re climbing the corporate ladder, to go back to that old thinking of moving up constantly, of having a nice car, of living in a nice house. You know, there’s all of these things that are associated with what we perceive success to be. How do you think we start making those shifts in, you know, paradigm shifts Success is actually something different than what society tells you it is.

Wanda Wallace [00:12:24]:

Well, I would encourage you to start looking at the things that are positive in your career and not just the comparative, because comparative will demotivate every human being in the universe. And, you know, social media does not help us on the comparative. I had a little down moment today on that one myself. So I get it, I understand it. But you’ve got to get those messages in your own head of Here’s what matters to me.

Aoife O’Brien [00:12:47]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:12:47]:

All right. So if the big house matters to you or the particular car or the particular watch or the whatever it is that matters to you, then fine. Go for that because it matters to you, but do it because it matters to you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:00]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:13:00]:

Not because that’s somebody’s expectation.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:03]:

Okay.

Wanda Wallace [00:13:03]:

Yeah. And that’s the secret crossing line. Are you doing it for yourself or are you doing it for somebody else? Let me put this in a context. Um, coaches that work with elite athletes, So this story is coming particularly from the UK, from one of the Olympic— UK Olympic team’s coaches, sports coaches. And what he says is a kid coming through the system that has the potential to be an Olympic athlete and to stand on the podium and win gold under the, you know, UK banner has to find their own motivation. It can’t be because their parents want them to, because their coach wants them to, because their school wants them to. It has to be a reason they want it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:50]:

Mm-hmm.

Wanda Wallace [00:13:50]:

He said, because nothing else will sustain you through all the twists and turns. And he said, there will be injuries, some pretty bad ones. You can’t train at that level without having an injury. So the question then becomes, what gets you to pick back up and work hard again to get back to where you were after an injury? And it’s only because it’s that personal goal, your value. And he said, you know, sometimes it’s just about the medal and sometimes it’s about any number of other things for the individual, but it has to be very, very personal. That’s your, we often say North Star. Everybody needs to articulate that for themselves. What matters to me? Forget society’s judgment.

Aoife O’Brien [00:14:31]:

Yeah. I loved another practical tool that you had in the book as well, which is looking over time. at my perception is, and I’ve done this exercise before, I first learned about it when I was doing my master’s, but looking over time and looking at again, my perception of like what went well or what were you enjoying, for example, and then what not so well, but graphing that over time, you can really see. And I think that helps you to articulate what’s really important to you.

Wanda Wallace [00:15:00]:

That’s right. And that may change. I mean, what was important to you 5 years ago may not be what’s so important to you now. I mean, we see that on the course of our life. But I know people who will routinely, you know, sort of take a yearly retreat. And I don’t mean weeks and months long, I mean a weekend. And for the purpose of the retreat is to go back and say, what were my personal goals for me last year? How did I do on that? Am I happy with that progress? Are they still the same goals for this year or not?

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:30]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:15:31]:

I know people who do that in their most significant relationship in their life.

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:34]:

Okay.

Wanda Wallace [00:15:35]:

But that moment, that pause moment to say, what matters to me? And spend a little time reflecting. reflecting on it. Write it down, keep it in front of you to review periodically. I just think it’s super, super powerful. And we know, you know as well as I do, that is this— we’re talking about intrinsic motivation.

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:53]:

Yes.

Wanda Wallace [00:15:54]:

And that is the one that sustains over the long run. Not the money, not the bonus, not the big car, because there’s always a bigger bonus and a bigger car. And, you know, all these—

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:05]:

Comparing yourself to someone else as well. Yeah, don’t forget, there’s always going to be someone who has a bigger house or a bigger car, whatever it might be.

Wanda Wallace [00:16:12]:

Whatever.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:13]:

One thing I’ll say on that, taking time for ourselves, and like, maybe this is a permission thing, but giving ourselves permission to actually think and take that time to reflect and have a look internally at those things. I think, dare I say, we spend a lot of time scrolling on social media or avoiding these difficult things. If something’s not going well, we just try and look to other things, whether it’s burying ourselves in a book or scrolling through social media, watching Netflix, whatever it might be. But we do anything to avoid actually looking internally and addressing what’s actually going on. So, you know, if you’re listening today, it’s permission granted to take that time for yourself and really try and understand. And going back to that exercise that you had mentioned.

Wanda Wallace [00:17:00]:

Before you go to the next question, let me give people a very practical tactic. to use to do the self-reflection. So you’re right, permission, absolutely, totally. But then you’re gonna say, well, what do I do with that? I’ve given myself permission now. All right, what you do, get a journal, an old-fashioned pen and paper journal. And I want you to write, give yourself a time limit. Let’s say once a month, once every other week, you give yourself 15 minutes to just write in that journal. And in that journal, I want you to reflect on what are you proud of? I want you to reflect another day on who do you admire and why.

Wanda Wallace [00:17:34]:

I want you to reflect another day on what did you do that actually made a difference this week. And just kind of keep— there’s a series of those questions in the book. But if you keep those— who do I admire, what did I do, what am I proud of— kind of going over a period of months, and then pull back and look at your journal entries, I think you’re going to see some words that start to pop out that matter to you. And now you know you’re on the intrinsic value that’s most important to you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:04]:

I love that. One of the other exercises I really liked, you know, I was gonna ask about or comment on goal setting because I know this happens to me as well, that I have an idea or a goal in mind and it’s in my head, but I’m really afraid to write it down in case it doesn’t work out. And then I’m sitting and I’m facing with this goal that I said I was going to achieve, I didn’t achieve it. But I loved your approach in the book to doing that. You want to explain a little bit more? Like, to me, it’s the going from and going to, like going to. Yeah, essentially. And it just has simplified it and broken it down so much. And it’s looking at our behaviors rather than the outcomes.

Wanda Wallace [00:18:44]:

Right, right. So I think there are 2 pieces to this one. You know, sometimes we set these long-term goals that are years in the coming, and they’re lovely because they’re motivating and exciting and it’s a long-term possibility. And for some people, that’s an easy thing to write down. And for other people, it’s really scary to write that down. So let that be a niggling thought in your head or write it if you want. But that isn’t going to get you there.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:08]:

Yes.

Wanda Wallace [00:19:08]:

What’s going to get you there is you go back and you say, what’s the first small step I need to achieve that puts me on the path to achieve that long-term goal? Okay, great. I want to achieve this one small thing, not big, small thing. Now, what are the behaviors, the steps I need to do? Start doing, stop doing. From action to a different set of actions that get me to achieve that milestone. And we find, we know this from the resilience literature, that when I break it into small, achievable steps, very action-focused, it’s far more likely that I’ll hit that first milestone and feel pretty good about it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:49]:

Mm-hmm.

Wanda Wallace [00:19:49]:

And then I set the next milestone and then, okay, I feel pretty good about it. And suddenly I marked my way halfway to that goal that I set. That seems so impossible to achieve. It’s the small actions, little bit by little bit, that makes tremendous difference.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:04]:

Yeah. No, I love that approach. And it was just for me so simple. And sometimes we overcomplicate when we’re trying to set a goal for ourselves. And, you know, there may be these big grand goals and trying to fill out every box in the SMART goal setting system when in fact we can just simplify it and say, this is where I am, this is where I want to get to, and this is This is what needs to change. This is how I’m going to measure it and how often I’m going to measure it. Right.

Wanda Wallace [00:20:30]:

And when you write it down in that from-to state, it’s a whole lot easier than to say what my measure is because I’m going from doing this to doing that. Okay, now I’ve got to measure. I can measure that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:40]:

One of the other things that I really liked in the book was a description of the different kinds of roles. And I suppose this ties into this idea of capabilities and getting a little bit better at things that maybe you’re not great at, but also still kind of concentrating on the areas that you’re really good at. I may have known this sort of anecdotally, but I think you’ve articulated it really well. And this is the idea. I’ve written it down here. It’s like the growth roles, the steady roles, the fix-it roles, the client-facing or the behind the scenes. And just knowing, and I suppose what I’ve seen out there, if say if someone was, whether it’s a CEO or a COO of a startup scale-up company, and then they’re like, right, I’ve brought it to where I can. And now I’m going to go to another company and do the same thing because now it’s someone else’s turn to kind of take the lead here when it’s got so big.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:35]:

So that’s kind of how I related what you were talking about. Do you want to explain a little bit more about what those things are? And maybe people will see themselves in those different types of roles and understand a little bit more about what they’re uniquely capable of.

Wanda Wallace [00:21:50]:

Yeah, I think there are 2 parts of this. This is if you really do have the aspiration to climb the tree, you got to move around all those different roles because that’s what makes you successful. successful at the very top. But it’s also a great way of describing who you are and what you want in the long-term part of your career. So this is old research from the Center for Creative Leadership when they looked at people and the longevity of their career and people don’t derail. And they found that— and I’m going to simplify it as I did in the book— that people are best when they have been in a growth role. So there was an innovative entrepreneurial role. It was take it from where it was to a much larger company.

Wanda Wallace [00:22:31]:

They’ve also been in a fix-it role where something was broken and they had to go in and make a massive change and get it fixed. And they’ve been in a steady-state role so that I inherited a business that is running smoothly and I have to just keep it running. Those are 3 very different leadership behaviors.

Aoife O’Brien [00:22:49]:

Yes.

Wanda Wallace [00:22:50]:

Right? And they’re 3 different experiences. And we often find people repeat one of them over and over and over again until you look like the only thing you can do is fix it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:01]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:23:01]:

Now, if that’s what you want as your career aspiration, fantastic. There’s plenty to fix out there. Go for it. But if you want a different kind of balance, if you’re looking to make different impact, then you want to be thoughtful about, wait, I’ve taken 2 fix-it roles. Maybe I need to do a steady-state role and live with the discomfort that comes because you’re in a different role. I added 2 to that because it’s what I see today.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:29]:

Okay.

Wanda Wallace [00:23:29]:

There are places where I really love that front-facing client engagement, make the deal, bring in the money.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:37]:

Okay.

Wanda Wallace [00:23:38]:

That is what I love.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:40]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:23:41]:

And in some companies, that’s the center and that’s the only way you’re gonna get to the CEO or the C-suite position.

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:47]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:23:48]:

But there’s also the role that says, no, I’m more comfortable in the number 2. I wanna be behind the scenes orchestrating, making it happen. And there are some companies where that is the best route to the C-suite. It’ll depend upon the industry, for example.

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:02]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:24:03]:

But being conscious of where are you best and what do you want and what are the consequences of that choice. So if I’m in an industry that is driven by who got the latest, biggest, largest client, and that’s what it takes to make it to the top of the organization, Then I’ve either got to live with I’m not making it to the top by staying in the background, or I got to get better at doing some of that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:31]:

Yeah. If I think back to, well, one particular company that I worked in, the route to the C-suite was very obviously going to a different market and fixing, or like that being in maybe a high growth market. So often in Asia and then coming back to Europe or the US and working in that kind of more steady type of market. So, that was a very, you know, and I thought it was an Asia thing. Oh, you have to go to Asia. But I think the way you’ve articulated it is you just need to be in a part of the business where you have to show those types of capabilities that you can manage in that type of situation. It makes me think of actors and being typecast. So, if you’re always in a rom-com and you keep saying yes to those roles, then when you go and look for something in a drama, then, or an action movie, then maybe you’re not going to get that opportunity because people have typecast you already and they think that’s the only thing that you’re capable of.

Aoife O’Brien [00:25:34]:

I mean, I’ve seen some actors, to keep on the acting thing, there are some actors who’ve successfully navigated that, you know, gone from comedy to something a little bit more serious and things like that. Some other kind of choice things that I took from the book, your boss will think you can’t lead if you spend too much time firefighting. I was like, wow, I never really thought about that. that before. So if you’re spending all of your time on the stuff that’s urgent and that keeps coming up and you’re just putting out fires all the time, or find yourself putting out fires and working on things that are so urgent, and I do hear a lot of people talking about that, what does that say to your capability for actually managing your time and being able to manage in those situations?

Wanda Wallace [00:26:19]:

Well, I 100% believe this, and it’s one of the big mistakes I watch people make all the time because The urgent is appealing.

Aoife O’Brien [00:26:27]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:26:28]:

It’s in my comfort zone. I know how to fix it. I get kudos for fixing it. I feel a little bit like the hero or the heroine of the day. I can go home and feel a little satisfied with my accomplishments because I fixed it. But what that means is, I mean, the organization will love you. Don’t get me wrong. We’re happy to have you sit there and fight the fire if that’s what you want to do for forever.

Aoife O’Brien [00:26:51]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:26:52]:

If your aspiration is to step above that, then you’ve gotta be the one who says, we’re not gonna have these kind of fires anymore, or, I’m gonna leverage someone else to fight that fire, or, I’m gonna train somebody else to do that fire in a way so I’m creating more broader impact beyond just my ability to fight how many ever fires I can fight. ‘Cause there’s limited bandwidth on that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:16]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:27:16]:

If I wanna lead, I got to get above that so that I’m orchestrating more than fighting.

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:23]:

Yeah, I think that’s something that will resonate with a lot of people because I hear, I hear of it a lot where you’re just spending all the time putting out fires and it’s like if you could just take a step back and not have to put out those fires. And I think going back to your, your point there, Wanda, about it feels good because we’ve ticked a box and we have an accomplishment and we can tell someone what we’re doing versus taking a step back for creative thinking, for strategic thinking, and thinking about the longer term and what the impact will be. It’s harder. And at the end of the day, you don’t necessarily have something to show for it, for those achievers out there.

Wanda Wallace [00:28:00]:

Well, we fall into the default of just do as opposed to something else. So let me, you know, Aoife, I’m famous for tactics. So let me give you one tactic on this one. Super, super simple. No extra effort. Just do the following thing.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:16]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:28:16]:

For every fire that anybody listening is fighting, never fight it alone. Bring one of your team members at every single interaction. Just make them tag along. And the reason for that is they will hear things in even that initial conversation and know how to pick up the action steps at the end of that conversation. And you don’t have to do it. You can oversee it, but you don’t have to do it. If they’re not there with you in that meeting, though, then nobody knows that they’re on it. You got to find time to come and brief them.

Wanda Wallace [00:28:50]:

You’ll leave out some details, then you’re micromanaging what they do and how they do. And by that point, I might as well do it myself.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:56]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:28:57]:

So it’s bring— it’s bringing somebody with you who’s going to become the firefighter, the executor on this particular issue.

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:05]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:29:05]:

And they’re with you at every step. And it’s such an easy thing and will ultimately save you a lot of hassle and make your team member feel pretty good about themselves.

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:16]:

Yeah, they’re getting involved in it. We touched briefly on the idea of having a personal brand at the start of the conversation. I’d love to come back to that now because I think you’ve, again, you’ve articulated it in a really interesting way. Looking at, like, if we look at ourselves, we know everything about ourselves, but what we put out there, it’s not necessarily everything we have to offer. And it really depends on people’s perception of us, essentially.

Wanda Wallace [00:29:42]:

Right. Well, for most of us, it feels pretty creepy to say, hi, I’m Wanda, I’m really great at this and this and this and this. And oh, look at me, isn’t that wonderful? Some people are better at that, and bless them, go for it. But most people I talk with are just not very comfortable with it. And often the language we come up with doesn’t feel like us. It doesn’t feel authentic. So it just doesn’t work very well. And the magic of this is spending time to develop the message that you want people to remember about you.

Wanda Wallace [00:30:13]:

So if you think about it, people are hearing thousands, hundreds of thousands of messages every day.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:18]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:30:19]:

I want them to remember it. So that means I’ve got to craft it in a way that is clever, that feels right. That takes a little work. Now, it doesn’t mean I do that for every introduction. But once I’ve done the 3, 4, 5 messages I want you to know about me, then it’s not very difficult to say that in a good way in the moment.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:38]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:30:39]:

And more importantly, I need proof points. Like, what are the pieces of evidence, the stories that I would tell that prove that I am this way? Okay. Those should include things like values, they should include skill sets, they should include things you love to do, they should include things you’re proud of. And if you If you start the exercises, I believe you will come up with 3 to 5 messages pretty quickly. And then it’s crafting that in a way you say, right. And then I put the evidence behind it and I go, yeah, you know, that really is me. And then road test it. And then I’m ready to be able to talk about myself at any given moment.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:16]:

Yeah. No, it definitely feels cringey. And I think it’s something I’ve had to get over having my own business. to kind of put yourself out there and be able to talk positively about what you do. But I, I never was aware of this when I, again, when I worked in corporate. And I think we have this tendency to blame circumstances or to blame the leadership, or, you know, I know you address in the book some of these situations, and one of them that resonated for me was being passed over for promotion.

Wanda Wallace [00:31:45]:

Oh yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:46]:

But we tend to look outside of ourselves rather than looking internally. That’s something I really appreciated about the book as well, to understand the narrative that we’ve given ourselves, but then to also find a way to articulate how, how we’re actually coming across. And with the knowledge that if we’re not influencing that in some way, then you can believe that they’re saying whatever about us, and we don’t actually know. And I think so many people are afraid to ask for feedback about how they’re coming across, Right. because they’re afraid of receiving Something they perceive as negative.

Wanda Wallace [00:32:22]:

Right. Well, I’ll give you an example. I have a fairly recent case, a woman in a very high-profile position and looking at that kind of gate-changing promotion. So she’s getting a great opportunity, got great sponsors, a lot of really good things. She was passed over twice. And she’s passed over because she has a reputation of not being terribly collaborative. Okay. It’s undeserved.

Wanda Wallace [00:32:49]:

In my honest judgment, coaching her, I really genuinely believe that is not true. But there are people who’ve had a negative experience with her.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:00]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:33:00]:

Who have loud voices, metaphorically and literally loud voices. And their story is dominating. Okay. Now she has a choice on that one. She can say, the organization shouldn’t listen to them. And I go, maybe they’re right. But that doesn’t give her any power. And it doesn’t let her take control of the message that’s being told.

Wanda Wallace [00:33:22]:

I think what she has to do is to say, yep, you’re right. I did have an unpleasant experience with that person. And I have 50% of the blame to take in that exchange.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:33]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:33:33]:

Not 100%, but 50%. But I gotta counter that narrative. So what am I gonna do in a— powerful way and in a relatively loud way to counter the narrative that is being told about me. Okay, there’s dozens of techniques, but it’s just acknowledging that feedback. Don’t pretend it’s somebody else’s problem. It’s your problem now. It landed on your seat. And even if it’s undeserved, you got to take action on it.

Wanda Wallace [00:34:03]:

And that’s exactly what we’re trying to do is take— have that agency To do something about it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:08]:

Yeah. That was the other thing I wanted to come back to is, again, this, this idea that we are at the mercy of our circumstances or our difficult boss or whatever and take back some of those, like you mentioned about, yeah, maybe 99% of the things are not within our control, but the 1% that is, how do we take back more control of that? Controlling I was gonna say controlling the narrative, but I mean that in influencing the narrative as opposed to like trying to manipulate people in some way. But yeah, it’s having that agency. How do we allow people or how do we encourage people to take more of that agency when they feel like they lack power or they lack agency?

Wanda Wallace [00:34:57]:

My life’s mission Let’s just solve this problem right here. Because if you don’t feel like you have any agency, meaning there is nothing else you can do, you feel like a victim, that is a bad place to be.

Aoife O’Brien [00:35:12]:

Yes.

Wanda Wallace [00:35:12]:

You’re not gonna be at your best. You’re not gonna be the kind of person we wanna hire or be around or give new opportunities to. And it is just self-defeating. So the sense of there is always a thing I can do, Small, tiny, simple. That’s what you want to focus on in doing that. Okay. And you’re right, as you said in the last one, we— last commentary, I have to be very candid about the reality. My view of reality may not be how other people see reality.

Wanda Wallace [00:35:43]:

And I gotta be super careful that I listen to all those other stories that I have ignored, discounted, been defensive about. There’s something there that I got to pay attention to. Bringing that all together and kind of opening your mind for what’s going on, and then being able to say, what’s my next action? So in the book, I use a phrase that’s common now, which is, what’s the story you’re telling yourself?

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:08]:

Yes.

Wanda Wallace [00:36:09]:

And it’s also the story your friends are telling you, because they know that’s the story you’re telling yourself. So they don’t want to tell you the one that you’re not hearing. Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:16]:

So, or maybe you don’t hear it because you’re blocking out what you don’t want to hear.

Wanda Wallace [00:36:21]:

Yeah, whatever, whichever reason it is, there’s another story out there. And you have to go understand that story, hear that feedback. Then you can begin to get down the path of what’s the one simple, small step I can do next. Because a simple, small step changes the situation. It may not fix it. It changes it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:42]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:36:43]:

Yeah. And we see this, you know, I was just interviewing Mark Barridge, who just had this you know, the height of his career, massive corporate career, came off of his bike and was paralyzed.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:53]:

Oh, wow.

Wanda Wallace [00:36:55]:

Or he is walking now, not brilliantly, but walking. Not perfectly, I should say. Brilliantly, he’s walking. But, you know, that whole sense of how do you recover from something like that? When we look at people who go through those kind of events, it is always one small step, one small goal, one thing I can focus on today, even if everything else is going wrong. And it’s the same in your career. It’s no different.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:18]:

Yeah, yeah, that, that’s another thing I really appreciated about the book, and I don’t think we do enough of that in these kinds of books, is understanding what that narrative is and understanding our emotions and our emotional reactions. And that’s what’s causing us to tell ourselves these stories. And, you know, looking for those alternative perspectives that may hurt us or, you know, may feel awkward or difficult in the moment, but actually ultimately will really help us to push forward in our career.

Wanda Wallace [00:37:53]:

I’ve never seen it fail. In every coaching engagement, somebody is telling me about somebody else that is causing a problem. When I can get them to the point where they’ve recognized that yes, they have their own set of facts and they can think about what other set of facts might be going on. Even if we don’t know if it’s true, just that other perspective, suddenly 5 new avenues of action open up. I’ve never ever seen it fail. And if anybody thinks it doesn’t, give me a call. We’ll try, we’ll test it out. Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:24]:

Yeah. Get in touch. Get in touch. I’ve so, so enjoyed this conversation and I definitely highly recommend anyone to check out the book and it’s whether you’re actively managing your career or not. I think it’s It’s something that everyone needs to read to understand how to navigate all of these different kinds of situations at work to achieve what it is that we want to achieve. Now, Wanda, the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Wanda Wallace [00:38:57]:

Knowing that I’m having impact.

Aoife O’Brien [00:39:00]:

Love that.

Wanda Wallace [00:39:00]:

It is my driver. When I know I’ve had impact, then I am a happy camper. When I think I have failed on the impact, it’s not a good day. And sometimes you don’t know the impact that you have, which is particularly hard for people like me who are more extroverted. But that’s my driver. I am happier when I know I’m having impact.

Aoife O’Brien [00:39:18]:

Yeah, no, I’m introvert. Well, depending on which test I take, but I generally come up as introvert, but I love to have impact as well. And it is a struggle when I don’t know what that impact is. Now, if people want to get their hands on your book, if you’re watching on video, you can see a copy of it there behind, Taking Charge of Your Career. people want to get their hands on a copy, if they want to connect with you, if they want to feel challenged, what is the best way they can do that?

Wanda Wallace [00:39:50]:

I hope that I’ve done everything possible that if you Googled Wanda Wallace, you would find me pretty quickly. I hope. If not, I would like to hear from people, but wandawallace.com is probably the fastest way for people to find me, find the book, find the other books, and hear some other things about me. I’m certainly on LinkedIn, Wanda T. Wallace. I’m on Instagram, Wanda T. Wallace. We’ve got a YouTube channel.

Wanda Wallace [00:40:15]:

I think if you start searching, you’ll find it. Any of those are easy ways to get in touch.

Aoife O’Brien [00:40:20]:

Brilliant. And don’t forget to mention your podcast as well, since people are listening to a podcast.

Wanda Wallace [00:40:26]:

Well, I can’t say my podcast is better than your podcast, please. That would be terrible. But at any rate, Out of We’ve been doing it for almost 15 years now. Hard to believe.

Aoife O’Brien [00:40:36]:

Yeah.

Wanda Wallace [00:40:36]:

So some great interviews, including you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:40:39]:

Yes, exactly. And we can put a link to the book in the show notes too. We can put your socials in the show notes and we’ll put a link to the episode that I was on your podcast as well, talking about thriving talent. So thank you. I really, really enjoyed this conversation and I loved the book. I loved how practical it was and I loved how practical our conversation was today. So really appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

Wanda Wallace [00:41:01]:

Great fun. Thank you very much.

Aoife O’Brien [00:41:04]:

That was Wanda Wallace sharing insights on how to strategically manage your career. I really hope you enjoyed today’s episode as much as I did, and don’t forget to share it with someone who really needs to hear it today.