234: From Overwhelm to Intentional Fulfilment with Cherylanne Skolnicki

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:02]:

Cheryl Ann, you are so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I’m delighted to have you as my guest. Do you want to give people a little bit of a flavor of who you are and how you got to doing what you’re doing today?

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:00:14]:

Sure. Sure. I will do my best. So I usually like to start with the present and then back up a little bit. So today, I am, the founder and leader of an organization called Brilliant Balance. It is a platform serving professional women, mostly women in leadership positions who are really standing at that intersection of work and life, looking for how do I have a big full life and the freedom to enjoy it. And it is my deepest pleasure to lead this organization and serve these women. I could not be happier at work, so I guess I’m in the right place today.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:00:51]:

Personally, I have been married for almost 24 years now, and I have 3 teenage children who are 14, 17, and 19, 2 girls and a boy, and a small menagerie at home with a dog and a couple of cats and a goldfish that just refuses to let go. So we are, a happy tribe over here, and, I’m very, very lucky to be doing work that I love so deeply. I have had a career of doing work that I love. My my career started after university. I went to work for Procter and Gamble. So big global company, worked in sales roles for, a short while, and then marketing after that, and spent a total of about 15 years climbing the ranks at P&G before I decided to strike out on my own. And, at that point, I started my first company, which was in the health and wellness space called Nourish. Did that for about 5 years, and then, parlayed that into what has become Brilliant Balance.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:01:53]:

And so Brilliant Balance in its current iteration probably started around 2015. And so we’re coming up on 10 years of doing this kind of work with this kind of client, and I just couldn’t love it more. I get to do a podcast. We have coaching programs, and I run, a membership for women leaders that, is called Bold and is one of my favorite things I get to do.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:19]:

Brilliant. I love that. I think that’s why we connected so well when we first chatted was this background in, as you call it, the CPG industry in Yes. Europe, FMCG, fast moving consumer goods, or in the States, consumer packaged goods. But I think just with that similar background that we had, we’re like, yeah. And, you know, similar mission, I suppose, now as well. We’re like, okay. We’re gonna definitely have a lot to talk about and we certainly have up to now.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:46]:

I’d love to dive a little bit deeper into this. You mentioned about, like, helping women especially to have a fuller life. Like, what does a fuller life mean to you? Like, can we maybe we start there. Like, what does that actually mean?

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:02:59]:

Yes. Well, I think it’s my word for busy. Right? I’m I was so sick of people describing their life as busy, and I do think that this is evolving. I think, you know, 10 to 15 years ago, when I was starting in this line of work, everyone was describing themselves as busy. It was kind of the greeting. How are you doing? I’m so busy. Right? I’m so sick of hearing that. And I started, answering the question by saying life is really full.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:03:23]:

And that seemed to really resonate with people that they’re like, you know, that’s also true. Right? Life is really full, and that comes with a lot of responsibility, a lot of, places that I have to be and things I have to do, and so we start describing that as busy, but busy had this kind of heavy, frantic quality to the energy, and full, felt good. Right? And and so I think most of us do have big, full lives. There’s a level of complexity. There’s a lot of moving parts. There’s a lot of people that we care about or priorities that matter to us. And so, fullness to me kinda captured the positive side of that same characteristic.

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:05]:

Can I just take a moment to say I absolutely adore that reframe? I love that. And what I often find and I was one of those people, by the way, who who used to say, I’m busy. Or can we meet up, I’m busy that evening. I’m busy. I’m I feel so busy. And busyness for a long time, and I’m seeing a slight shift in it now, was this badge of honor that people I’m so busy, which in brackets, I’m so busy and important, maybe.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:04:33]:

That’s right.

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:34]:

So that’s what they’re thinking they’re putting out there. I’m so busy because I’m so important. But I love that reframe of I’m I I have a my life is life is full right now. Yeah. Life is full right now. And the positive energy that’s associated with that, exactly as you said, Cherilyn, this idea of having relationships, people that we care about, and I was gonna say busy lives.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:04:56]:

Oh, that’s

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:57]:

full of life as well to go along with that. You know, we have a lot of things going on in all of the different aspects of our life, I suppose, is what I was trying to to get at. Like, there’s the health aspect, there’s the career, there’s the finances, there’s all of these different parts of it. And, you know, when you talk about having a full life and moving away from that idea of busyness, and I’m busy for busy sake, and I feel so out of control because I think that’s another thing with that term busy, isn’t it? I’m so busy, as if other people are making me busy, and it’s other people’s fault, and we’re not taking responsibility ourselves. So within that context then, how how would you describe what a full life actually means with all the positivity that goes with it?

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:05:45]:

Mhmm. So I think you’re right when you say that busy somehow abdicates our sense of agency. Right? It’s like we’ve we’ve ceded it to someone else. We’re just kind of standing at the end of a conveyor belt receiving all of these tasks that we have to somehow schedule and manage. Right? And I think the word fullness implies that we’re curating the collection. Right? We want it to be full, but not like packed or, again, that kind of, the frantic energy that comes with, I’m not in control of this. Fullness to me is a word that implies, like, I’m choosing to add these elements to my life, and then I’m gonna choose how do I manage them? How much of them? How often? Right? How much importance do they get? How perfect do I need to be in those aspects? So I think fullness also maybe leans to richness, like those words feel connected to me, and having a really a rich life or a full life, there’s a sense of that, like, like a great cup of coffee. Right? It’s morning here.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:06:47]:

I’m drinking this cup of coffee. It’s like I want it to be full and rich. Those are words that I would use to describe it. And so it there’s a sense of satisfaction that comes from that. Right? And I I do think the the how do we get it is about being choiceful, really thinking, having a level of intentionality about what we let in and what we don’t, and then having the time to like savor it, having the time to really notice it, to enjoy it. So I’m often, working with my clients are often women who are pretty advanced in their careers, right? They’ve been at this a hot minute, and so there’s a level of complexity to life in that stage. Most of us have the families that we’re going to build to build, we’ve built by this point, right, in in our careers. And the careers that we’re going to have, we’ve added a lot of the responsibility, and a lot of the, like, the goals we’re gonna go after are pretty close in at this point.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:07:45]:

And so I think we’re peaking on that complexity curve right at the time that I’m intersecting with these women. So there is a fullness already there. The thing that I’m often doing is, like, recurating the collection. Are there some things that we need to let go of? Are there some things we want more so that when we step back, we’re like, yeah, there’s there’s enough here that it’s really doesn’t feel empty, right? But it also doesn’t feel overwhelming. And that’s the edge that I think we’re really looking most of us are looking for. I don’t know about you. I mean, that’s the edge I’m looking for.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:15]:

Yeah. Yeah. No. I 100% agree, and I totally get what you’re talking about, where you’re going with that. And I loved how you counterbalanced it. We don’t want it to be too full, but equally, we don’t want it to be too empty because I think sometimes we fear if we start saying no to things or no to people that somehow we’ll be left with nothing. And so it becomes this really difficult cycle of, I’m trying to manage all of these things. I have this full life, but actually now it’s too full for me.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:40]:

So, you know, what what am I supposed to do about it? What are what are my first steps, I suppose? You know? And I think a lot of people will resonate that.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:08:51]:

A bit of experimentation or exploration, have you ever had a role or a season of your life where you were like, I dialed it back a little too far? Have you ever had one of those?

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:00]:

Yes. I have. Yeah. Yeah.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:09:01]:

Me too.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:02]:

Or I go into myself and I’m like, I don’t want to see people right now, and I will just take time for myself. And you kind of feel like now I’ve gone into my shell, how do I come back out of my shell again Yes. And and peopling a little bit more?

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:09:16]:

Yes. I had one when I had my second child and I was still working at P&G, I was so determined to make sure that I wasn’t over committed that I took my work to 60%. And honestly, it wasn’t enough for me, for that was a chapter where I was like, I so have my arms around this role, and I’m doing it at 60%. I mean, I can like lock my laptop in my drawer overnight, and that felt like, this is maybe not the level of challenge that feels good. Like, I was underwhelmed by, you know, we always talk about being overwhelmed, right? I was truly underwhelmed by the work that I had. I kinda had my arms around parenting a little bit, 2 kids in, so it felt different than when I had gone back after my first, and I just was like, yeah, I under did this. And I stayed there for a while and then moved into a role that had more juice and had more challenge, and I think I went back to 80% for a while. And then I went to full time with a day at home.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:10:12]:

So it there was like an experimentation phase of really trying to get it where it was enough to be challenging and engaging and stimulating, but not so much that I was, like, raw around the edges.

Aoife O’Brien [00:10:25]:

Yeah. There’s so much that’s coming up for me right now when you talk about that, Geralyn. One of the things that’s popping up, like, straight away is this idea, and it’s part of my happy or at work framework, is within, our needs, our psychological needs. One of our psychological needs is the need for competence. And for me, that’s always finding that balance of support and challenge. So it’s not just about being able to do your job. It’s about having sufficient challenge in your job and being able to recognize that for what it is Yeah. But also with the recognition that that was a I was gonna say a difficult time.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:03]:

It may be a challenging time in your life because you have so much going on outside of work, but the recognition that it’s okay to take that slightly, you know, smaller step, less challenge at the time. But with the recognition, then you’re like, oh, wait a minute. I can handle more. Okay. Let’s bring it on. Let’s increase that to 80%. So I love that kind of recognition. I suppose to me, it gives other people permission to be able to do that, to recognize the season that you’re in, that you don’t always have to go at it full on, which, you know, I need to take some of my own medicines sometimes, I think.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:38]:

Some of it like, I’m there. I’m going. I’m going for it. But I just wanted to acknowledge that as well. So there’s yeah, those couple of things that are that I suppose are popping up for me. And if people want to do this and and I suppose the one word that we haven’t really used in the conversation so far is this idea of balance. Is that kind of what you’re talking about when you talk about having a full life and it not being over packed, overstuffed, and equally it not being empty so that each of the different areas of your life, however you want to define those different areas, feels like they’re just right.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:12:17]:

Yes. Well, I think that’s for me probably where the second half of the equation comes in. So I think most of us are pretty good pretty good at accumulating a big full life. Right? We’re pretty good at sort of, like, going through that all you can eat buffet and saying, I’ll have one of these and one of these and one of these, and we collect these roles that ultimately create a very full life, sometimes too full. Okay? But we we get the big full life. What we’re not so good at is protecting for the freedom to enjoy it. And so, you know, you get these stories, and I’m sure you hear the same stories I do, and I’ve lived some of these stories of, you know, the woman who, is like, okay, we’re gonna put in the pool. And she puts in the beautiful swimming pool in the backyard, and it’s all landscaped, and there’s the exact right furniture she’s always dreamed of, and then you talk to her at the end of the summer and she’s like, yeah, I wasn’t out there at all.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:13:08]:

Like I didn’t even spend one day at the pool. But, and it’s just a metaphor to me of the things that we want, we create these things in our lives, but then we don’t have the time, we don’t give ourselves the permission to actually enjoy the life that we’ve built. And then that’s where you get the kind of, what’s the point? Is this all there is? Because we’ve accumulated and accumulated, but we haven’t really it feels so frantic. Same thing with kids. It’s like, there was a chapter in my life where I was so resentful about driving carpool. I mean, if any conversation you would have had with me, I would have been, like, just so frustrated about carpool. It felt like all I was doing was driving kids to and from places. And there was a point where that really shifted, and it was a couple of elements that shifted.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:13:55]:

One was I decided I wasn’t gonna drive all the carpools, right? I was gonna really create, within my family, taking turns of who was driving. My husband, my mom was happy to drive, my dad was happy to drive. I’m really lucky that they live close by. And so I got it kind of right sized. And then I started viewing it as what it was, truly, which was an opportunity to connect with not just my kids, but also their friends. You know, to overhear some of the conversations, to be a part of them, to play music with them and know what they’re interested in. Like, it became a time that I could reclaim as, like, there I’m enjoying this activity because I wasn’t doing it so often that it was making me crazy, and I reframed in my mind, like, the purpose behind it. So there’s so much that can go into this around the freedom to enjoy it and why we can’t seem to give it to ourselves.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:14:46]:

Right? We’re just hyper productive. But I think that’s the to me, that’s what completes the balance equation is what elements do you wanna have in your life that make it full, and what are you doing to protect the freedom to really enjoy those elements that you’ve carefully curated?

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:02]:

Yeah. I can a 100% relate to what you’re saying. And if I, again, relate it back to my life, my current situation, I live in Tenerife in the Canary Balance, and I did live in a place that had a swimming pool. And when I was looking for a new apartment, what do you think was on that list? Swimming pool. And I think you quickly realize with the maintenance costs and with the cost, the increase in the price of an apartment as well, when you’re talking about having a swimming pool, I have to look back and think, how often did I use the swimming pool when I had access to it? And so what you were talking about really resonate with me because I did not use it as much as I thought I would or when I look back as much as I should have, really, given the climate that I’m in. And I love what you said about it’s not just what we want. It’s giving ourselves permission to be able to. And I think that’s where a lot of us struggle is the permission to take a break or I love how you encapsulate all this with the freedom to actually enjoy it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:05]:

So I think that’s probably a phrase that people will really resonate with as well. So it’s not just creating this life. It’s having the time to actually enjoy your life as well. Yes.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:16:14]:

And, you know, it’s I think that’s an important, we have to take this detour. It’s not really a detour. It’s a really important piece of the equation. Because if if it’s so clear, right, if it’s, of course, we want a big full life and of course we want, why don’t we? Yeah. What what are the things blocking us? And it’s so interesting to me, the the more I study the human behavior side of this, it really is our emotions that get in our way. And so I started to look at what are the things that keep us from doing it. It’s like, well, I could to go back to my silly carpool example, I could have asked other people to drive that carpool a lot sooner. Right? I could have told the kids you can’t be in that activity because I don’t wanna drive you around all the time.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:17:00]:

Right? I could have, changed the frequency with which we did them. But I wasn’t doing any of those things for a long time because these emotions come up, right? Guilt, like if I tell my kid they can’t do this activity, right, I’m gonna just ruin their life. Or if I let someone else drive, what if that’s the day that they really wanna talk? And then so there’s like FOMO, right, involved. And then what are other people gonna think of me? If I’m asking people to drive and I’m not the one doing it, the judgment, can I withstand the judgment? And what if they don’t do it right? You know, what if I ask my husband to do it and he forgets to pick them up? So, like, the loss of control. So these 4 emotional states, the 4 that I call them, like, the big 4, guilt, FOMO, judgment, loss of control, we don’t do those things well. And if you take it from silly carpool example all the way to anything else we want, so often, it’s one of those 4 emotions that’s really getting in our way and preventing us from giving ourselves permission to do the thing we want.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:05]:

Yeah.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:18:06]:

And that’s where they made a dance there for a while, because learning to get comfortable tolerating those emotions people ask me all the time, how do I get rid of the guilt? And my answer is you don’t. You learn to feel that feeling and do it anyway. And that’s that’s really where the freedom comes from is the ability to tolerate some uncomfortable emotions for a while so that you can still push through and have some of the things you’ve been yearning for.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:31]:

That’s really interesting. And, you know, I’m not gonna take a massive detour, but I just want to highlight to listeners that there are some previous episodes about emotional intelligence and about that idea of sitting and feeling your emotions, not hiding them, not running away from them, but just recognizing them for what they are, and I suppose how much control they have over us as well. And I love that you’ve broken it down into these 4, and dare I say, whatever it is that you want to do. And I’m kind of thinking of imposter syndrome, and I’m thinking of how do I take that next step in my career if that’s what people are thinking. You know, I’m always the ambitious, so I’m always thinking of, like, what’s the what’s the next way that I could do this? But those things are things that can hold you back in Absolutely. Probably most aspects of your life. So I love how you’ve just broken it down to those four things. And the fact that you’re not going to get away from feeling those feelings, you’re going to feel them if you do what it is that you want to do so that you have the freedom to enjoy the time that you have.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:36]:

But you need to be able to sit and learn to feel those feelings, which I think is it’s so easy to say that, but when you’re in the emotion Yeah. It’s not easy to do. To it. No. Right.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:19:49]:

Yes. I am like a card carrying feelings hater. Right? I do not enjoy feeling my feelings at all. So I think that’s why this was a late breaking piece of the model for me is, like, I had to keep saying why. Why, if it is so obvious to people, I can see the light in their eyes when we talk about, you know, letting go of some things or letting other people in so that they can take on some of the load or simplifying and being less perfectionistic. Like, everybody is head nodding and then not doing it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:18]:

Yeah.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:20:18]:

And it I really had to keep asking what is in the way, and I think it was the same things that were in the way for me. Right? That this kind of wall of feelings that we’re about to run into that says, I just I just cannot do it. I’m not allowed to do that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:31]:

Yeah.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:20:31]:

And if we want to really enjoy these lives that we’ve built and we wanna have those moments that I think are what we’re really dreaming about when we talk about balance, it’s you you might think of balance as the balance between what I have to do and what I want to do. Right? Not necessarily between work and life, but what are things I feel like I’m compelled to do and I don’t have a lot of choice, and what are the things that I get to do or choose to do or want to do? If we have a good mix of those, we’re gonna say we have good balance. And so this is, you know, another pathway to it is enjoying our life would be a good mix of the things that we want to do.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:10]:

Yeah. No. I love that. I’m not allowed to do that. So thinking back on these big 4, do you think or have you seen any correlation with the types? I’m kind of I’m where I’m thinking with this is that maybe certain personality types might be fearing loss of control more than others? Or, like, are you seeing any, I suppose, connections between those different 4, or do you think it’s a broad spread across them? For me, personally, I’m thinking guilt and control are the the two ones that are screaming for me. And I’m just wondering, are most people similar, or are you seeing kind of a a mix of those different There’s

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:21:52]:

a bit of typing. There’s a bit of typing that would get into Zoom.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:55]:

A little bit type.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:21:56]:

Yes. What is the what’s the one we are most likely, most prone to stop us? Yeah. And, however, I do think all of us experience stop us? Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:22:02]:

And,

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:22:02]:

however, I do think all of us experience all 4. Yeah. But, certainly, there’s a bit of profiling that plays

Aoife O’Brien [00:22:06]:

out in terms

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:22:06]:

of who is most likely to experience which. Yeah. Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:22:13]:

I love it. And have you noticed a connection between, I don’t know, personality types or maybe stage in career or stage in life or anything like that that can help us to to kind of profile them a little bit?

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:22:27]:

Yeah. I think it maps actually to several. Right?

Aoife O’Brien [00:22:29]:

Well, I

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:22:29]:

mean, if you think about the obvious, let’s just think about guilt. Mhmm. People who would identify as people pleasers, Enneagram twos, right, you can kind of look through the whole all the different personality typing, that is going to correlate strongest to somebody who feels guilt. Right? Someone who is less prone to people pleasing as a tendency, less of a caretaker, is going to be slightly more able to tolerate guilt, not that they won’t feel it, but it might show up differently. Go to the other side of the spectrum, loss of control. You have people who would veer more perfectionistic, maybe an Enneagram 1 and 8. They’re gonna have a harder time letting go of things. You can look at the Myers Briggs profiles that would have a harder time letting go of control because there’s this kind of cluster of over controlled personality types.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:23:16]:

Right? That that is going to be their, Waterloo, so to speak. FOMO. You’re gonna have the people who really want adventure, who wanna be in on everything. You look at Enneagram, they’re gonna be the sevens. Right? So there are some of these correlations across, like, a predisposition to experience 1 or the other, but, again, I do think most women would say I experience all of them at some point in

Aoife O’Brien [00:23:40]:

time? Yeah. No. I can totally relate to all of them. That’s for sure. I want to, Cheryl Ann, come back to this idea of the have to do versus want to do. Because I know you’ve talked about this before and this idea of choice and reframing this thing of I have to. Do you wanna talk to me a little bit more about that?

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:23:59]:

Yeah. So the the reframing of can you ask the question again about loss of choice?

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:05]:

Yeah. So really, it’s this idea of the you were mentioning the balance between have to do versus want to do. And I know that you’ve spoken on your podcast before about this idea of choice and reframing the have to do to this is something I choose to do. Get to do. Yes. I get to do Yes. For x you know, and this is the reason I get to do it. So I just I love that as a reframe for people rather than feeling, again, this loss of control and feeling trapped, that how do we make that reframe or any examples to share around that?

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:24:37]:

Well, I think there’s a spectrum of our ability to do this. Right? If you think about something like in the US paying taxes, I think most people would say, I mean, okay. I have to

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:46]:

do have to pay taxes.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:24:48]:

And here’s the simple frame. Okay. I get to because I have an income. Yeah. Right? Now that might be a stretch. I mean, I am surely not delightedly writing my checks for taxes, but at the same time, it is true, right, that the more you’re paying taxes, it’s because it’s correlated to being fortunate enough to have that income. So, if we can find the reframe, even in an example like that, we can probably find it in other places. Right? So, oh my gosh, I have to deal with all this stuff with the dog and the vet.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:25:16]:

Yeah, because I have this pet that we adore who just is such a delight to our family, right? Or back to my carpool example, I have to drive this carpool. Well, I get to spend this time with my children watching them interact with their friends on their way to something that they love. So it can sound a little contrived at first, and yet over time being like, what do I get to do today? Just asking yourself that question. I’m one of those people who wakes up every morning with kind of the to do list in my head, and it’s real easy for it to become a have to do list. What’s

Aoife O’Brien [00:25:48]:

all the

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:25:48]:

stuff I have to get done? Yeah. What do I get to do today is a much more empowered frame to be looking at your day. And I don’t know. For me, it prompts me to pull some stuff onto my list that I really am choosing. Yeah. You know? And I’m also gonna add that walk this afternoon when it’s supposed to warm up and be sunny. And I’m also gonna add, you know, that new favorite tea that I bought because I haven’t seen it since last fall, and I’m excited to start having in the evening. Those little moments that we can kind of plant for ourselves, I think, come more naturally when we’re in a get to do or choose to do frame.

Aoife O’Brien [00:26:24]:

Yeah. Definitely. And so you described something earlier that has stuck in my head, and it was the conveyor belt of tasks coming at us. I just thought that is it’s such it’s such a interesting way to describe it. And it’s so like, I can just picture that happening because that’s how it feels. But if you have this to do list and you reframe that to this is what I get to do today, it feels less like that conveyor belt of tasks coming at you and more, okay, here’s the the buffet and here’s what I want and here’s what I’m going to to leave behind.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:26:59]:

Not That’s right.

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:00]:

We don’t with the caveat that we don’t often get to choose that, you know, here’s all the stuff I want to leave behind. However, if we have a reframe like this is what I get to do in my role, whatever that might be, then that’s really positive. Yeah. Are there any other sort of practical examples or practical steps that you can share that might help women to get this greater sense of the more the freedom side of things, like freedom to actually enjoy my life. I’ve built this wonderful life. Now I want the freedom to enjoy it.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:27:33]:

Yes. So it’s such a it’s such an important question, and and inherent in your question is the belief that it is possible.

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:41]:

Underpinning is sitting in the belief that it is possible. So I usually think about

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:27:42]:

the framework as,

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:43]:

you know, for

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:27:43]:

sort of step 1 is really knowing yourself and what matters to you. If you’re not and and I’m telling you, that sounds like a duh obvious thing. It is just not.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:02]:

It’s not snowing.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:28:04]:

The time to sit with ourselves and really have a level of self awareness around how are we wired, what do we need, what feels good to us, right, so that we can make choices around what really matters to us, not what societal expectations say or familial expectations say, but what really is authentic to us, I think is step one. And then aligning our time with those things. Right? Again, we really are, we get 1 24 hour a day at a time. It sounds so trite, but our, that’s it. If we, you know, how we spend our days is how we’ll spend our lives.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:41]:

Yeah.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:28:41]:

So thinking about how am I going to make choices every day that line up my time with the things that I care about now or that I’m steering my life toward, that’s kind of the fulcrum that it shifts on. And practically speaking, how do I, not overstuff those days, right, and and make the best choices so that, ultimately, I can continue to take those actions that move me forward, right, which is gonna require managing those feelings that come up when I do it. But that that kind of cycle allows us to say, how did that feel? Like, I did it. Right? I did the thing that was in alignment with my priority. I dealt with any emotions that came along for the ride. What adjustments do I wanna make? What did I learn about myself? And we’re kind of in a cycle of, forward momentum that that we can repeat for a long time if we’re paying attention. And I just think where we get stuck, we get stuck when we’re not clear about what we want. We’ve given up our own sense of self.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:29:43]:

We’ve kind of given that up in service to what we think other people want from us or expect of us. Yeah. That’s a real recipe for disaster.

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:51]:

Yeah.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:29:51]:

Or we haven’t learned how to really align our time. So we’re, you know, I don’t know if if you, ever years ago saw an old I love Lucy TV show, but that, is probably a US centric reference, but this very old comedy show, there is a classic episode where she’s at this conveyor belt and candy is coming off the conveyor belt, and that’s what I always say

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:11]:

about it. I know the image.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:30:13]:

Right? And just shoving the mirror

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:15]:

where we can

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:30:15]:

find the meme on the Internet, as fast as they can come, she’s trying to, like, deal with them, and you reach a point where the rate with which things are coming at you feels like you can’t keep up. And that is true until you start to say, I’m just gonna let some of these fall. Right? I’m I’m they’re just not mine to pick up. And that’s that’s really the game that we’re playing.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:36]:

Mhmm. I think it’s interesting. I wanna come back to this idea of knowing yourself and knowing what you want. I speak about career strategic career development quite a lot with organizations. And one of the things that I share that I found, really useful was an interview that Oprah did with Trevor Noah. It’s a very short clip. It’s like a minute or a minute and a half. And the she’s answering the question, why do most people not get what they want? And her answer was that most people don’t know what they want, and that’s why they don’t get what they want.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:11]:

So I can totally relate to that. We’ve spent so much time living up to other people’s expectations, following a career path that maybe was set out for us or that we thought we should or had to do next Yes. Rather than following what it is that we want for ourselves and maybe over time just became completely blind to what it is that we really, really want for our life. And then when we do start to take that time, we have all of these feelings that we can’t deal with because we think we should always feel good and happy all of the time, especially if we’re making some positive changes, that that’s going to maybe hamper our ability to do what it is or spend our time in the way that we want to spend our time.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:31:57]:

Yes. And it’s so scary to articulate what we want and start lining, you know, living that out because we run smack into other people’s opinions. Oh, yes. Right?

Aoife O’Brien [00:32:09]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:32:10]:

So, you know, when I was talking about those 4 feelings and judgment, the idea of what is someone else going to think of this choice that I’m making, or is it prestigious enough? Is it socially acceptable? Is it cool enough? Like, I think it goes all the way back to being young girls and wanting to kind of fit in with everyone else. And there is this point where standing out may arguably be more important than fitting in, but it feels scary, right? Because at a primitive level, it’s like we’re gonna get cut off from the tribe if we don’t fit in. But that’s the answer. I mean, the way through is to say, like, I have to be willing to stand out instead of fitting it literally, whether it is a fashion choice, whether it is a, pastime choice, like this is just something that I like to do with my free time, a food choice, like, we are allowed to like what we like. And it is just so rare to have the, sort of internal locus of control strong enough to be able to do that and withstand, like, well, how is this gonna look to everyone else? Right? Which is why even as adults, we sometimes look like, you know, we’re, like, in these little tribes where we’re all carrying the same water bottle and having wearing the same shoes, and it’s it’s so important to us to be just like everyone else.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:27]:

And you default to other people almost to make decisions on our behalf. What does my boss think I should do next? What does my mom or my family or whatever? What do they think I should do next? I know certainly that is or has been true for me in the past. You kind of you want to know what other people think and you get that input. And I love this, again, this very clear image of being the person to stand out. But I also wanted to to generate this that if there’s someone for for people who are listening today, if there is someone that you can think of in your life who has done that successfully, like, you have nothing but admiration for them. So I think it’s it’s not as scary as what we think it is. When when someone is really true to themselves, to their values, when they’re wearing, like you said, a fashion choice or making a food choice or a career choice or a hobby choice, that other they maybe had all those fears going on, but they made that choice anyway. Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:34:25]:

Like, how that comes across is that is someone who knows themselves and who’s really being true to themselves.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:34:31]:

Right. We respect them. We admire them as a society. And I think where it gets twisted in the mind of the person considering it is, yeah, but they were successful. Oh, yeah. That’s not true for me. And the reality is, no one knows how it’s gonna turn out. When they make the move, it’s the boldness of that, it’s the courage behind that to find out, right, does it line up? And what I’m forever reminding people is you can always change your mind.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:34:57]:

Yeah. If you try something and you make a move in the direction that feels like this is authentically what would be right for me, go back to my example of 60%, 80%, 100% with a day from home. I mean, there’s a chronic experimentation that we can run with our lives where we can steer. And so no decision has to be forever and ever. Amen. Right? It’s we are able to say, I’m gonna do this for a while. I’m gonna see what I think, and if I need to pivot or change, I think that’s the only way I got myself to leave my corporate, career was to say, look, if this doesn’t work out, I can go back somewhere. Someone will hire me, right, in a corporate job.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:35:37]:

And, you know, I’m grateful that that hasn’t been the case because I’ve really been able to steer through this chapter. But if it had come to that, if I decided, like, I don’t like it or I can’t I can’t seem to kind of get 2 sticks to rub together, I would have found another corporate job. It would have been okay. Would have been a different path.

Aoife O’Brien [00:35:56]:

Yeah. And I think well, kind of in building on that point slightly, and then probably should wrap things up a little bit. But in building on that point, it’s the fear that I tried, And I’ve seen this coming up a couple of times lately. It’s not just that I I tried and I failed, but I tried and I told other people, and other people knew what I was doing. And I failed in front of other people. And now I have to go back and and get a full time job, or now I have to take a demotion, or now I have to switch back careers, or now I have to stop traveling, or whatever it is That’s right. That you want. And and certainly, when I left, one of the jobs I loved I have to say I loved this job, but I left it because I wanted to travel.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:37]:

And I very clearly remember a friend saying to me, it’s okay if it doesn’t work out and you come back to London. I was like, well, the plan always was to come back at some stage. This is just a travel part of my life, and it’s not like I failed if I come back to London. I went out and I explored the world, and I traveled, and that’s what I set out to do, and that’s what I wanted to do. Anyway

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:36:58]:

That was the point. Right?

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:00]:

That was the whole point. Any final thoughts to leave us with before we wrap things up? I I think that just my closing thought is always kind of

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:37:10]:

right where we started, which is, you know, you now that you really have this frame as the listener of a big full life and the freedom to enjoy it, I just don’t want you to settle for anything less. Like it’s available, it is a series of short choices away, and giving yourself the headspace and the support to make those choices Yeah. And to run those experiments is really all that’s standing between you and having it. So I I want that for you. I hope you want it for yourself.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:38]:

Well, this is it. And I think for anyone who’s listening, thinking that doesn’t apply to me, it absolutely does. If you’re listening to this, it applies to you. Cheryl Ann, thank you so much for your time. I’ve so enjoyed this conversation. One of the questions I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you? I think I would guess, by the way.

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:37:59]:

I’m not sure I can get much happier at work these days, but I think, really, you know, it’s it’s the continuous steering toward the things that light you up and and recognizing that, I think sometimes we make work and life a dichotomy, and I think that they are blended. Right? Work is such a big part of our lives, that happier at work means happier in life.

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:19]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I love that. And if people want to connect with you, if they want to find out more about what you do, what’s the best place they can do that?

Cherylanne Skolnicki [00:38:28]:

I think since you’re listening to a podcast here, finding my podcast might be helpful. And we, curated a playlist of some of the top episodes of the podcast. So it’s on our website. It’s brilliant dash balance.comforward/playlist, and we have a curated collection of episodes there for you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:38:46]:

Fantastic. And we’ll be sure to put that link in the show notes as well for people to click directly in and take you there to listen to that playlist. Thank you so much. I absolutely loved this conversation. I think we probably could have talked about this for hours. And I love the practical things that you shared as well that people I know can start thinking about and taking action on straight away. So thank you. Appreciate that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:39:09]:

Thanks for having me.