238: Reflecting on Happier at Work 2024 with Aoife O’Brien

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:01]:

Hello, and welcome to the award winning Happier at Work podcast. This is the career and culture podcast for people first leaders. If you’re listening in real time, a very happy new year to you. Welcome to 2020 5. I have a very special episode for you today. The big focus is on throwback to 2024 and 5 of the top episodes from 2024. I have done this kind of episode before, but not quite exactly in this way, so do give me feedback. Do let me know what you think of today’s episode.

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:36]:

I’m very active on LinkedIn, so that’s probably the best way to find me or to connect with me. You’ll find all of my details on my website, happieratwork.ie, and feel free to reach out to me directly through there as well. As always, if you enjoy today’s episode, don’t forget to leave a rating, a review, or share it with someone who you think might find it beneficial. So into the main part of today’s episode. So I will be talking about 5 episodes that were released in the last year, and those 5 episodes are all in the top ten from last year as well. The first episode that I want to talk about today, which was the number one episode for the whole year of 2024 was the episode I recorded with Jordana Confino, and it was all about perfectionism and where perfectionism actually stems from, how it might show up, the societal pressures around perfectionism as well, then a little bit of psychology about, well, why does it happen, and some very, very practical steps on what we can do to address perfectionism and to overcome perfectionism. I particularly liked this episode because Jordana has such a nice energy. We bonded really, really well during the discussion, but also the practical nature and the research based advice that she had when it came to managing perfectionism, not least because I am a total perfectionist.

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:13]:

I like to say I strive for excellence rather than perfection but that’s kind of the direction I was going and I could totally relate to everything that she talked about on the episode. So here’s a little clip to give you a taster. With all of these episodes, I’m gonna put a link to the original full episode in the show notes as well.

Jordana Confino [00:02:31]:

When I really focused in, as long as I worked hard enough and was diligent enough, which I just became super willing to do, I could almost make my grades perfect. And I could bring home those perfect grades, and I think I felt like, oh, well, this will make my parents happy, and, like, this is something that I can control, and this is, like, this is how I can be the good daughter. This is how I can be the good girl. Fast forward to college, I didn’t think at that point, you know, having been valid to Korean in high school, I didn’t think I can get more intense. Then I had a horrible breakup the beginning of my 2nd year of college, and again, it felt like things were spiraling out of control and I was feeling bad about myself, in this case in particular, I actually doubled down again and became even more intense about my studying and my drive at that point. And so looking back in time, I’m seeing things that I couldn’t control coupled with me feeling bad about myself, and I think that I just identified at some point the way that the only thing that I can control and the only way that I can really prove my worth and my value and show up as this good girl that people love and they appreciate, feel is worthy in the world is by perfecting my work. Like, that was the only thing that as long as if I tried hard enough, I could perfect. And so my whole identity came to revolve around that.

Jordana Confino [00:04:00]:

And the the problematic thing was that in order to perfect my grades, which became increasingly hard once I went from college to law school where the the learning curve is just so much higher. Mhmm. I I basically it squeezed out the room for anything else, and therefore, there were no there was nothing there was no other aspect of my identity at that point. So it got to the point where I was like, well, if I don’t graduate with literally perfect grades from Yale Law School, then what do I have to show for myself? Like that is who I am at this point. And so everything became so bound up in that that the stakes felt so high. And I think that was really how I got to that breaking point that I did relatively early. I feel like a lot of people get farther into their careers before they completely burn out. And I was pretty young, but I think it’s just because I was just so intense.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:04]:

The next clip is from Caroline Collins. And in it, we talk about culture and how to create a really positive culture at work, the role of leaders in creating that positive culture as well. There were so many nuggets from this episode from the importance of creating a positive culture in the first place, what that looks like in terms of psychological safety so that people feel okay speaking up about what’s going on and challenging the status quo. But we also talked about things like feedback and the positive intent behind feedback. We talked about feedback versus gossip and killing gossip quickly. We talked about taking the mystery away by setting clear KPIs, OKRs, and setting really, really clear expectations as well. So here’s a little clip from the episode with Caroline. There is a link to the full episode below.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:59]:

I highly encourage you to check it out. If you’ve listened to it before, check it out as a refresher. If you haven’t listened yet, definitely go and check it out.

Caroline Collins [00:06:07]:

We don’t all love change. We’re humans. I get very suspicious of people who and, again, culture is in North America versus Europe versus, you know, APAC, people will talk about change differently. I I always get a little nervous. People go on change. I can’t wait. I’m just so up for you. You can go, oh, okay.

Caroline Collins [00:06:27]:

If you put me in front so I’ve done some really big change management programs with different businesses. And the ones who are up the front who tend to be the gung ho of I’m so up for the change, I’m here, and and a lot of lingo and slang kinda comes with it, and they tend to take up lots of space. You know, there’s a certain personality. They they kinda make me nervous because as people, we do like a certain degree of of consistency. We like to know what’s going on. Change can be challenging, and, yes, all of the cliches hold the really interesting stuff happens outside of your comfort zone. But does anybody really sign up for, you know, the 40, 50 hour week, you know, thing in their life that bring that pays the bills and keeps the roof over their head to for that just to be upended. I’m not sure.

Caroline Collins [00:07:06]:

Never really convinced that people sign up for that. So when I’m leading a change program and you see a group of people, it’s not the ones down the back who have already decided that this is the worst thing that’s ever gonna happen to them. So not them. It’s not the ones at the front telling you how to do it, and they’re so down with the plan. They’re there ahead of you. It’s the ones in the middle who look, like, a bit curious. They’re the people, I think, where real change conversations can happen because they’re sitting being honest saying, okay. Could be good, might be bad.

Caroline Collins [00:07:31]:

I just wanna find out some more. They’re the ones who have meaningful questions. They’ll be the people who become your best change ambassadors. Yeah. So I kinda pick my middle crew and go, okay. These are my people. We can work together on whatever the conversation or in change is. I love that.

Caroline Collins [00:07:45]:

But yeah. People are

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:47]:

Sorry. Go

Caroline Collins [00:07:48]:

ahead. Messy. I’m not sure I’m not sure any of us truly, truly love change. We might embrace it. It’s that whole, you know, learn how to surf rather than be afraid of waves. You can put all of the, you know, the posters up on the walls, but we are still human, with all of the flaws.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:08]:

My next episode is from Ronan Gallagher. And I’m kinda starting to sense a theme here because one of the things that Ronan talked about was the enneagram type 1, which is the perfectionist. So we’ve just covered perfectionism with Jordana, and here we are again now with perfectionism when it comes to the enneagram type. So Ronan talked about 3 specific types of the enneagram. There are 9 in total. He talked about 3 and those 3 were, number 1, the perfectionist, and the perfectionist thinks there’s one right way to do things. Number 3 then, the achiever. So this is about the projected image of success.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:49]:

And then number 8, he talked about as well. The number 8 is the boss, that is about having control and having a lack of vulnerability or being afraid to show vulnerability. What I loved particularly about the episode with Ronan was it was the application of enneagram in the workplace specifically as a tool to help us to understand other people because I think when we understand others and the perspective that they come from, and to use Ronan’s words, the wounds that they have. So those wounds that they have from childhood and what those inner drivers that they have are really driving them to do or protecting them from. How those show up in the workplace, I think, is really important. And it helps us to foster better relationships with other people when we can understand them better. So here’s a clip from that episode with Ronan, and there’s a link to the full episode below in the show notes.

Ronan Gallagher [00:09:41]:

Why do we behave as we do? Yeah. You know, what’s the reason for it? And every well, not every, but 9 personality types under the enneagram, each have their respective motivation. And if we could go back even further, you know, what what psychologists will call it defense mechanisms,

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:57]:

you know, tools,

Ronan Gallagher [00:09:58]:

tools, tools, things, these things that we developed, in our childhood because we didn’t have the emotional development to process it or feel it. It was overbearing. We didn’t have this brain chemistry or the emotional wherewithal to process it and say, Okay. You know, that’s okay. I’m hurt by this. I feel it. It doesn’t feel pleasant. When we’re young, we build this psychological structure to defend ourselves.

Ronan Gallagher [00:10:22]:

And that’s really what motivates our behaviors. And then, crazily, we carry this into our adult lives and we carry it into our corporate life, Aoife. You know, I know that’s your the sort of the workplace, your specialty. And, you know, it’s like children really running around crashing into each other. And look, if I don’t say that in a condescending way, I’m not immune to it. I’m still triggered by certain types.

Aoife O’Brien [00:10:43]:

Yeah. We’re all human.

Ronan Gallagher [00:10:44]:

Yeah. Absolutely. I bring it home at night. I’m upset by it. You know, I’m angry. I feel worthless at times because of it. I feel, you know, I feel very vulnerable at times because of it. But that’s the thing.

Ronan Gallagher [00:10:57]:

It’s just the cycle. We’re all just trying to improve that. But, if I can give you a couple of examples, if that would suit you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:04]:

Yeah. Yeah.

Ronan Gallagher [00:11:05]:

Yeah. So like how they show up. And if I suppose I’d like to select a couple of the types. And again, this is not a judgment as to them. It’s just, unfortunately, the way the corporate world and the and the workplace has has evolved.

Aoife O’Brien [00:11:16]:

Well, this is it. I’m I’m curious about that because I know before this conversation, you were saying we’re not gonna go into all of the different 9 types. There is just no time to be able to do that. And definitely check out Ronan’s book if you want to explore any of these concepts further. But I’m looking at the types, and I’m thinking I’m curious to know which ones you’re gonna bring up because we haven’t talked about which ones we’re gonna talk about. And I have an idea of which ones are gonna come up, and I think people who are listening are really gonna relate to whatever comes up because they’re probably so typical of the either ourselves, and we can recognize ourselves in it, or we can recognize other people in in what comes up. And, again, it’s not a judgment. It’s just this is this is how it is and this is what we learned before the age of 7.

Aoife O’Brien [00:12:02]:

This is how we learn to to cope in the world, essentially.

Ronan Gallagher [00:12:05]:

Absolutely. And so if we just preface all of this by saying if anyone’s saying he’s on his high horse, I exhibit a lot of the traits of 2 of these characters. So I’m putting my hand up here, Ef, and saying, look, I’m you know, if you’re thinking, no, that’s me and I’m a bit hurt that he’s bringing these up, I’m this person as well.

Aoife O’Brien [00:12:29]:

My next clip is from Faye Wallace. Faye is a HR consultant. She also has her own amazing podcast called HR Coffee Time. So definitely go and check that out if you work in HR. Faye and I talked about this idea of networking and this clip that I’m going to share is about busting some of the myths that are associated with networking. I think sometimes we we get in our own way and we stop ourselves from networking because we don’t have time, we think it doesn’t apply to us, we think it’s really cringey. What I found over time is the best networking that I do is really 1 on 1 and building those 1 on 1 connections, which is also a form of networking that suits me and my introverted personality type. I’m I’m not a huge fan of going to big events and kind of going from person to person to try and find that one person that you can build a relationship with.

Aoife O’Brien [00:13:28]:

I much prefer having conversations. Now it is a little bit more labor intensive but it’s something that works for me. Here’s Faye to talk about networking.

Fay Wallis [00:13:37]:

Networking can really help your career. And I’ve realized that more and more and more as my life has progressed, I suppose. And I’ve seen how many people have supported me on the way with my career but also with all of my coaching clients, especially the ones who are in very senior roles. If you ask any of them how they got to where they were, at some point in their story they’ll say I had help and it was from someone within my network. I would say the first challenge is people just hate the idea of doing anything that feels like it’s going to be contrived and they’re just out there to get something for themselves and they feel like it can be this horrible, icky, insincere thing. I think also some people don’t really believe that it works, and they think, well, everyone talks about networking but I don’t really need that. I have a job and hopefully they’re happy in that role and I’m so busy in this role I haven’t got time to be thinking about things like networking. So, as a very first step, I think it’s helpful to address those, perhaps, misconceptions about what networking really is, as well as a reassurance that it is going to help, and there definitely is a point in doing it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:14:53]:

Yeah. And if I I suppose if I cast my mind back to my corporate days, the only networking we re if I you know, the or how I would associate networking is when we, as an organization, ran events or if it if I went along to an industry based event as well, like showing up at those things. And, you know, if I if I think back, there was one time that one of the senior managers in the team couldn’t make it to this event, and I went along with another one of the c senior managers, felt so completely out of place. Talk about imposter syndrome. And you’re kind of hobnobbing, for want of a better word, with all of these other people who you perceive to be, quote, unquote, better than you. You know, you have this perception that you’re in the wrong place. And I know that the it was a, the person I went with was a man. So he was a senior leader within within the business that I worked in.

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:50]:

And I’m sure he just kind of went off and said, I know who I want to talk to. I know what it is that I want to get from this session, and I know what to say and I know what to do. Whereas I was kind of drifting from person to person, saw one person that I recognized. And I always remember people. That’s the the kind of difficulty. If I’ve met someone before and I know their face, I’ll remember them. But sometimes people don’t remember who I am and I forget that. And so I started talking and he was sort of like, oh, did we work together like, you know, 10 years ago or whatever? But I I suppose it’s that is maybe what people think that networking is.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:26]:

Do you wanna talk a little bit more about in in your experience or the experience of your clients as well, some of the examples of of what networking is.

Fay Wallis [00:16:37]:

Absolutely. But first of all, I need to say how impressed I am that you remember everybody. I wish that I did. I I definitely don’t find it easy to always remember exactly who someone is. So, yes, as a tip to you, as someone who is brilliant at remembering people, definitely a good idea to remind them of, who you

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:56]:

are and who you’ve met before. Yeah. Exactly. The last episode I want to share, but by no means the least, is from Lucy Gurnan. Lucy Gurnan is an executive coach. She’s an absolute powerhouse of a woman and she also has her own podcast as well, the 360 Leadership Podcast. Lucy’s episode focused very much on what we as individuals can do to better manage our work. So things like focusing on outcomes based work, getting really strong boundaries in place, being able to manage upwards and prioritize how we’re spending our time.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:44]:

I really know that you will enjoy and take so many practical action points from the full episode, but here’s a clip of Lucy.

Lucy Gernon [00:17:53]:

So I would hear a lot from senior leaders in particular. I carve out the time in my calendar, but inevitably, something else happens, and I don’t get to take the time. And one of my clients asked me last week. She was like, any advice? How do I do this? So there was 2 things I said to her.

Caroline Collins [00:18:09]:

Mhmm.

Lucy Gernon [00:18:09]:

The first thing is you have to apply what I call the 2 steps ahead rule. Yeah. Okay? And this is where you need to be strategic, okay, and think about who’s going to need me this week. Yeah. Who are the stakeholders that I know? Like, because we usually, actually, if you think about it, it’s never normally really a surprise. It’s normally usually something that you’ve kind of been expecting, or it’s a day to day business fire that leaders are always surprised when there’s problems. Like, your job as a leader is to solve problems. Right? So it’s about anticipating that.

Lucy Gernon [00:18:46]:

It’s about you know, on a Sunday, I would always recommend a Sunday night, Monday morning, whatever works for you, looking ahead at your week, looking ahead at your meetings, looking ahead and seeing, do I you know, applying the 5 d’s, decline, delegate, defer it, or do it. Right? Mhmm. And then the final d is discipline, self discipline to actually execute the system. It’s about freeing up space in your calendar so you’re not looking at a myriad of triple book meetings and then wearing it like a badge of honor

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:14]:

Yeah.

Lucy Gernon [00:19:14]:

Okay, that I’m overwhelmed. And then it’s about looking at the deliverables. Okay. Look. What’s coming up? What’s likely to come? What’s like, I so say, what’s gonna bite me in the ass if I don’t actually do something about this? And I’d be picking up the phone, and I’d be ringing certain people going, I know this this thing has happened. What do you need from me? Can I support you well before they come to me? So that’s the first thing I would definitely say is to is to start using that 2 steps ahead rule as a game changer.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:41]:

I love that. I love it’s just anticipating. And I think when you can anticipate and when you’re thinking those 2 steps ahead because you know what’s gonna happen. Always, nearly. You know what’s gonna happen. You know? I think you can predict. You know your team well, and you know what’s gonna happen. If you don’t do that, then it’s like, okay.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:00]:

So why don’t you say in advance, what are you gonna need from me? And that in some ways, that puts the onus on the other person to have a think about, but then you can also anticipate, you know, what is this gonna be. Check out the full podcast episode if you haven’t already, and the link is below. That is it for today’s podcast episode. I really hope you took some practical insights, some practical changes that you can implement straight away today. This is the whole reason that I do the podcast. It’s not about listening and being inspired and thinking, oh, I know that or now I know something new. It’s really about putting into action what you’re learning from the podcast. And I always love to hear from listeners when they reach out and they say, well, well, one person in particular told me what would Aoife do in this situation? I loved hearing that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:51]:

But things like things that they have actually implemented, so things that they have done differently as a result of listening to the podcast. Given the time of year, if you’re listening in real time, it is absolutely a great time to implement any changes that you want to make whether in your organization, in your career, in the culture of the organization that you work in. Don’t forget that I left links to all of the podcast episodes in the show notes below. So do let me know what you thought of today’s episode. Let me know if you’ve gone back to listen to those full episodes as well, and I’ll be back in new areas again next week.