239: From Manager to Coach with Jude Sclater

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:02]:

Jude, you’re so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I know we’ve had this in the diary for quite a number of months now, suggested by our mutual friend, Faye Wallis. So shout out to Faye. And I’d love you to explain a little bit about your career history. Like how did you get to doing what you’re doing today?

Jude Sclater [00:00:21]:

Amazing. Absolutely. And thanks Aoife for inviting me on as well. I’ve been eagerly looking forward, to this. So, I suppose my career took some interesting twists and turns. I, after university, I went to Brazil for a year and I taught English. And then when I got back to New Zealand, even though I knew doing something with learning and development was something that I, that I would really love. You know, I was in my mid twenties, so I freaked out.

Jude Sclater [00:00:52]:

I had no money and I needed a job and I ended up at Deloitte in New Zealand where, I trained as a internal auditor and an information systems auditor and I even got accredited with, the international bodies for both of those. But it became I don’t know whether I’m not entirely sure how this happened, but somehow it became clear that I liked, training, our staff and I had some really supportive, managers who kind of pushed me towards that direction. So I used to do loads and loads of of training, which I absolutely loved. I, after about four and a half years, I, moved over to the UK and continued auditing with Pearson Group and they own, at the time, they owned Penguin Books, but they also own things like Edexcel, the exam body, and the Financial Times. So I got to do some amazing audits. I got to audit the, GCSE marking system, which just, you know, absolutely phenomenal. But when I was I I did a lateral move into Penguin Books, into the operations team. And even though it was an organization that I loved because I love books, I love reading all the free books that I had access to and and things like that.

Jude Sclater [00:02:07]:

I was I was

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:07]:

actually jealous now, dude, I have to say.

Jude Sclater [00:02:10]:

I know. I know. It was there really is a what they call the pulp shelf, where you can go and and take 2 books a day. It was, there’s a point where it’s just like there’s too many books now. But it was I really

Aoife O’Brien [00:02:22]:

don’t and I don’t work for a book publisher.

Jude Sclater [00:02:28]:

So I sort of found myself in this in this place where it was the perfect company for me, but I wasn’t happy and I ended up doing a Master’s in Organisational Behaviour because I thought maybe it was just that I needed to use my brain a bit more and I knew from university that I really love psychology. But it actually took a conversation with a friend of mine who knew me from Deloitte in New Zealand and she was just like I don’t know what you’re doing, you love learning and development, why aren’t you doing that full time? And that was kind of when the light bulb went off for me and I ended up had a had a network of people that I could draw on and I ended up back at Deloitte in the UK but this time in learning and development in the risk and audit service lines and you know their point of view was you might not have a huge background in this, but you have done some learning and development. You know, you know the firm, you know our people, you’ve done the job, we’ll just teach you the rest. And then I worked there for, over 8 years. It’s where I retrained to be an executive coach, which is probably the most favorite part, of my job is is how I can use coaching in so many different places. And then, I suppose the the I left, there, about 6 years ago, and I set up my own business, Think with Jude. And it’s just been an amazing, again, an amazing learning journey because it it’s not just about, you know, I know how to coach and how to train, but how to actually run a business is is sort of the next big learning thing, for me. And then of course this year I published, Think Like a Coach, the the book, and then that was another big, kind of learning thing for me.

Jude Sclater [00:04:14]:

So, you know, I think what I sort of take from from my career is learning is something that I I really love. I’m quite passionate about. And if I’m not doing that continuous learning, that’s where, you know, I sort of start to feel a bit, well, unhappy, I suppose, deflated, not really kind of feeling fulfilled. And I think that’s kind of what happened at Penguin. And it would have been lovely to have to have stayed there, but unfortunately, it just the timing just wasn’t right.

Aoife O’Brien [00:04:41]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there’s so many parallels, I think, with us, and it’s so interesting that you’re like, I’m working in this amazing company and still I’m not happy. Yeah. You know, I think I’d love to dive into that. So you went on and did a master’s in organizational behavior. I did a master’s in organizational behavior, probably prompted exactly by the same thing that happened to you. But I’d love to get a a steer on, like, what did you uncover from doing the masters about your experience specifically at Penguin?

Jude Sclater [00:05:08]:

I think there was definitely something about being surrounded by people who were really interested in a topic and the kinds of conversations that we would be able to have. And there’s something I’m trying to work out how to say I don’t want to put down the people that I used to work with at at Pearson and Penguin, but there’s something about when you’re working in professional services, so like sort of the Deloitte’s or you’re working for lawyers or or things like that, you know, the people that you end up working with often tend to be very ambitious, very, intelligent. They’re very driven about their careers and and where they want to go to. And so the bonds that you form with those people and the kinds of conversations that you’re having are just amazing and they’re so interesting and you kind of really want to go to work. That’s not to say that you know towards the end of my time at Deloitte in New Zealand, again I wouldn’t say I was hating it but I definitely wasn’t happy and I thought at the time it was because maybe I didn’t like, auditing lots of different organisations because then I wouldn’t get to stay and see what the the impact, of some of my recommendations were, which is why I joined when I came over to the UK. I left Deloitte and joined Pearson because I thought I’m in the organisation. I’ll be able to keep in touch with with all of these people. And I think what the masters taught me is I I just love being around, people that are really interested and passionate about, you know, particular topics, about the things that we’re we’re kind of learning, and they want to really have lots of discussions and and things around that.

Jude Sclater [00:06:55]:

And I found when I went back to Deloitte into the learning department, again, I was kind of surrounded by these people that, you know, I remember, with some of my colleagues we’d be designing training and we’d just book out a room for a few hours and just kind of bat things backwards and forwards, you know, with each other. You know, really kind of embracing the different ideas

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:17]:

and things that we had because we wanted

Jude Sclater [00:07:17]:

to come up with the absolute best. Other thing the Masters taught me is that there’s lots of know, the other thing the Masters taught me is that there’s lots of different paths in a career. And up until that point, I always thought that it was just about ascending through the ranks and getting, you know, getting promoted and higher and higher and instead we have started to realize that your career is all of your life’s experiences, together. I’m trying to remember I think that’s Edgar Shine, definition of that and and so really started to put to recognize some of the other things, that I was doing and how all of these things have contributed to my career and the kind of twists and turns and the paths, that that that they’re taking.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:18]:

Mhmm. No. I love that. I mean, so it it’s you know, I don’t wanna kind of dominate the conversation and be like, oh, well, you know, this is very similar to the Happy at Work framework. So to me, when I was doing the masters, I had that question of, like, why was I so unhappy? And I asked some very specific questions. And and out of all of that, I devised my happier at work framework, which is all, about looking at your values, so making sure that your values are aligned, making sure that your needs are satisfied. And when you’re talking about needs specifically, it sounds like the relatedness needs. So, like, being able to get on really, really well with your colleagues is really important.

Aoife O’Brien [00:08:57]:

And then working to your strengths on a day to day basis, which going back to, like, maybe you’re in a role where I don’t get to use my passion and my strength for learning and development every day. So that’s something that’s kind of not, like, not helping me to be happier at work. And then it’s underpinned by psychological safety, which is really important, and it sounds like you have that, and then strong leadership as well is the kind of the underpinning of the whole model as well. But interesting as well, you said that about Edgar Schein. We had him on the podcast about 2 or 3 years ago. So for anyone who hasn’t checked out that episode, because I I realized that, you know, some of those old episodes, if people weren’t listening to the podcast at the time, they’re gonna go totally missed. So I will put a link to that episode below. It was Edgar Schein and his son, Peter, as well, and we were talking about their new book that had just come out at that stage.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:49]:

So really, really interesting conversation about culture and careers and all things that I think both of us are really, really interested in. I want to dive a bit deeper into what you were talking about, the the lateral move that you made. So it sounds like even correct me if I’m wrong, but it was before you did the masters that you made a lateral move. But then during the masters, you realized, well, my career encompasses all of these different things, and it’s the it’s the sum of all of my experiences to date. And if I make a change, I don’t like, the whole thing is I think people are so afraid to make a change because they think they have to start at the bottom. You know, if they’re they’re changing industry, if they’re changing roles, whatever it is, you kind of think like, well, I’ve put my ladder up against this wall and, you know, I better I better kind of stick to it. But equally and I had a conversation with a guy, a few years ago, and he told he knew exactly what he wanted to do, but he’d been doing something completely different for his entire career. But he was about halfway through his career.

Aoife O’Brien [00:10:49]:

Like, you know, if you wanna continue doing what you’re doing, you’re absolutely fine to do that. But if you’re if you’re 45 years old, you still have another 20, 25 years of a career left. So that’s not to say you can’t change and bring all of the experience that you have with you. Like, you’re not starting from the bottom again. So I’d love to uncover a little bit more about that, the idea of lateral moves.

Jude Sclater [00:11:11]:

Oh, absolutely. And, it’s so interesting that you you bring that up. You it was a little was it a little bit scary? I suppose it was a little bit scary. I mean I held on to my auditing certifications. I think I only let them go after I’d been at Deloitte maybe 4 or 5 years. I so I mean the firm was was helping to fund that but I still had to do all of the CPD to keep keep those qualifications up. And I remember going in and talking to my kind of my big boss about it, and he’s like, well, look, we’ll keep paying for them. He goes, but I think there’s something else here.

Jude Sclater [00:11:48]:

And I was just like, you know, I’m I’m there was this kind of fear to let those things go because if this thing didn’t work out, at least I knew I could go back to being an auditor. And actually I think that’s the thing to bear in mind is, you know, your experience doesn’t go away just because you change paths and also everything is relevant. You know, I know people might think it’s a bit crazy to think, you know, I’m a coach now. What does auditing have to do with that? But actually in the book I use a few examples of things that I learned as an auditor that have helped me, as a coach and in fact I sort of wish that all this knowledge I have around, coaching I’d had back when I was an auditor because it would have made some of, my interactions. I think I think it would have made me a better auditor actually because really auditing is about understanding the operations of an organisation and really the operations are about the people. So it’s understanding what are they doing? What what do they understand about the risks and the opportunities? Where are the because if anybody knows where the problems are it’s the people you know at the coalface in the organisation and the sad thing is is that often senior leadership you know the I don’t know if there’s just not a communication channel between them or they just don’t listen to them or they sort of think well you know it’s someone more junior how would they kind of know and yet somebody external coming in you know they end up with kind of a bigger voice and so that often used to be my I think that was actually one of the things I really I kind of liked about auditing was that I was able to elevate those voices and really help them to be heard. And if I think about, well me, as an Executive Coach and as a trainer, you know it’s the sort of the same driver behind there. It’s about helping people find their voice, helping them find ways that they that’s authentic to them so that they can be heard you know in meetings, in their teams, you know, in the organisation.

Jude Sclater [00:13:51]:

So there’s just so much that you can learn from different parts of your career and your life that will become relevant into whatever it is that you’re doing. Even if it seems like, you know, you’re doing 2 completely different things. I think there’s always something there from that experience. So even though I I mean on the whole I probably didn’t really love being an auditor, but I wouldn’t go back and change that for anything because I learned so much. I got to interact with some amazing people. I’ve got a great kind of a network, and all of those experiences have made me who I am today. Without them, I would be someone different and I don’t know who that would would be, but I’m really happy with kind of where I am right now.

Aoife O’Brien [00:14:38]:

Brilliant. And, you know, it’s I I mentioned earlier, it sounds like we have a lot of parallels. I come from that professional services background as well. So I worked in always on agency side, so dealing with really large global clients in a market research, consumer research type of capacity. And, again, that’s my background. A lot of people think that I come from HR. I do not come from HR. I had a 20 year career doing something I absolutely loved and ticking all the boxes from a happiness at work perspective, getting to use my strengths on a daily basis.

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:11]:

But I got to a stage where I was just like, I I’m not loving this anymore, and I want to understand more about what’s driving that. And for me, it was more being in the wrong culture of an organization. A couple of times that happened, and when it became a pattern, I thought I have to do something about this. But again, I can see the relationship between what I did previously and I want to start bringing more of what I did previously. So the analytics side of things, the turning data into a story, the really probing and questioning data that’s being put out there as well. So I see a lot of stuff on the gender pay gap, and I’m like, yeah, but what’s behind those numbers? Like, what are they not telling us? And you can you know, isn’t there a phrase saying you can use statistics to prove anything? So it’s just, you know, what numbers are you showing versus what numbers are you not showing versus what is potentially behind those numbers that people are putting out there. So I want to bring more of that into the work that I’m doing now and challenging that. And I think if we think about it more from an employee engagement perspective, like, normally I’m not going to say that everyone does this, but normally, companies are doing employee engagement service at least once a year.

Aoife O’Brien [00:16:26]:

But are they really understanding and interpreting the data in the way that it needs to be understood and interpreted? And what are they actually doing about it? Are they taking action on it, or are they just like, oh, well, that that that number has gone up or that number has gone down? So I suppose for me, it’s more challenging how we do those things with the logical, analytical brain that I have. But I’d love to know, Juz, do you have any specific examples maybe that you shared in the book of what you took directly from being an auditor and applying that to coaching or vice versa?

Jude Sclater [00:17:03]:

So the big one that comes to mind for me straightaway is silence. And I suppose I didn’t know it at the time because I didn’t know about about coaching, but I remember I was out on it must have been my sort of first or second job, and so very new and you know, you go and you you talk to people about you ask them a whole lot of questions because you’re trying to work out what actually, let me take a step back. So what I was doing was, an information systems audit. So it supports the financial, audit. What the the the probably what you normally think of as as an auditor. And my role is to see, is to give the financial auditors some assurance that the financial systems, the numbers that are coming out of them are exactly what they should be, that they haven’t been manipulated in any way. And so I was going to talk, with I can’t remember it was one of the accounts people. Like I can’t remember if it’s accounts payable or accounts receivable.

Jude Sclater [00:18:02]:

And I had this whole list of questions and I had gone to talk to her, I think 3 times already. So this was my 4th time going back and I didn’t want to go back again. And so I had all of these questions and I was asking them to her and then there was a silence because I was sort of really looking through my questions trying to work out was there anything else I needed to ask because I desperately didn’t want to come back another time. And in that silence she blurted out that one of the IT people had access to the finance system to cover her when she was away. And I was just like, well, that’s a massive red flag because those two functions should be completely separate, from each other. And I would never have found that out had it not been for the fact that that I’d accidentally been silent. And so that’s something I started to use more as an order to use a bit more deliberate silence and then of course fast forward to learning to be a coach and you realize that’s such a powerful skill to actually have because you know for me the purpose of coaching is about helping somebody come up with their own solutions and so if you’re asking some really lovely questions that are getting them thinking about things that they haven’t thought about before, then sometimes there is going to be some silence because you’ll ask them something and you know there’ll be kind of this moment where they’re racing and thinking in their head to sort of think about and make sense of what what it is that’s going on before they actually say it out loud and giving somebody that silence is such a really it’s such a good gift for them because it’s not often that we get a space that’s non judgmental that you can just think in and speak out loud and know that you’re not going to be, interrupted. So that from auditing was something that once I learned about it in coaching, I was like, oh, that’s what was kind of going on there.

Jude Sclater [00:20:04]:

And I think the the other one for me was one of the partners that I used to work with and I one day sort of you know barrelled into his office and I said look you know I think the approach we’re taking to this audit is wrong. And at this stage I’m sort of a Senior Associate. He’s a partner so I think he’s about sort of 4 or 5 grades between us and he could have just told me no this is what we’re doing get out. But he sat me down and he just said tell me why you think it’s wrong? And you know just asked a few questions and I at the I don’t even remember what the approach was but I remember the end of that conversation I realized that his approach was right but I didn’t feel like an idiot. I felt like I had been listened to. I felt like I really understood why we were doing things the way that we were doing. And it was just it was just really I think I didn’t I didn’t notice it at the time, but as I was writing the book and I thought back to it, I was like, yeah, that was coaching. That was him taking a step back and saying, I’m gonna let you get there Yeah.

Jude Sclater [00:21:04]:

Because if you can get there on your own, then, you know, you’ll know exactly what you’re doing. You’ll be more confident doing it, and and we’re gonna get an amazing result.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:14]:

Yeah. No. I love that. If I may, before we go on to talk a little bit more about coaching specifically and manager as coach for want of a a better phrase, I want to share, like, the best manager I ever had, and I have a very solid memory of her her and one specific conversation. Like, this is my lasting memory of her. I was having a problem with someone else who worked at another agency. So she was not a direct colleague, but it was someone who we have to work together with, but we weren’t getting along very well or she was quite domineering or something. And Caroline, my boss, she just started asking a series of questions.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:58]:

You know, she wasn’t jumping in to say, this is what you should do, but I really needed support. It was something that I was really struggling with at the time. And she asked me a series of questions, and I came away from that conversation feeling like, on the one hand, she had solved my problem for me because she asked all of those questions, but on the other hand, feeling so empowered because I didn’t come away feeling like I’m an idiot or how can I not deal with this person? I should be able to you know, I should be able to deal with this person, but I just came away feeling so good and positive about myself. I’m like that. I didn’t know at the time that that was coaching, and she came from a quite a different background. She joined our team at a very senior level, and she was just incredible. And it’s a lasting memory that I have of a boss. So can we talk, like, how how do we get to make that transition or or why is it so important for managers to to be a coach?

Jude Sclater [00:22:55]:

Yeah. So I think it’s important for a few reasons, you know, just think about the lasting impact our managers that we’ve just talked about have had on us, and how more confident and positive you feel about what it is that you’re going to do next. And that’s only going to benefit you as a manager. You know, I can I can only imagine, you know, your manager and my partner, how much more confident they felt once you walked out that you knew exactly what you needed to do to be able to deal with this? But then also how much insight they then had about where might we need a bit more support or a little more challenge around some things. You know what else could maybe they could get us involved in because perhaps now we’re ready for for a bit more of a of a stretch. And you know for me I think the the biggest benefit is is that lasting impact that you have on someone because really your job as a manager is to develop your team beneath you to almost well to actually replace you. That’s where you know you’ve done your job well because at that stage you should then be moving on to whatever the next point is in your career. Otherwise you’re not developing and I think you know other benefits around this and if I think about, someone who, has recently been on a I think like a coach workshop and, this was one where the organisation wanted me to come and check-in with everyone about 6 weeks later.

Jude Sclater [00:24:28]:

And she was saying, you know, it did take a little bit more time initially to sort of stop and take more of a coaching approach, but in that 6 weeks, her team had achieved way more than they had in the previous few months and she was just astonished and mind blowing at at how much more that they were able to do, how much more her team were able to do now 6 weeks later than they had done previously. So you’re getting much more productivity. You’re getting more motivation and engagement. Your time as a manager gets freed up to to focus on the things that are more strategic or just light you up that, you know, that that make you really happy. Right? Because you’re able to pass things down, to your team that are, you know, things that they can be doing to free you up to to do other things. So all I see are are benefits to it. The the caveat I’d put in there is I’m not saying that you’re coaching all of the time in every conversation, right, because that’s just not going to work. I think even know, there’s sort of a joke amongst us coaches that if the building is burning down, you don’t coach the person out

Aoife O’Brien [00:25:40]:

of it. You say get out.

Jude Sclater [00:25:42]:

Just say get out. Exactly. And I think that sometimes we sometimes the the confusion comes with people around coaching is that, you know, it’s not a it’s not a tool that you’re using everywhere all the time. It’s something that you’re using quite deliberately. And it and it’s something that you’re using to try and interrupt your natural reaction when somebody comes to you with a question or a problem. Usually you want to jump in and fix it for them and that’s coming from a great place but it’s also it’s your history, you know, because all from when you were when you were little and your caregivers were telling you what to do and then your teachers and your first managers, it kind of makes sense that when you become a manager, that’s what you do. Interesting though, when we all think back over the managers that had the biggest and the best impact on us, often they were asking questions, not telling us what to do.

Aoife O’Brien [00:26:34]:

Yeah. Do you that that that kind of gets me thinking. Did you do you have any examples that you want to share? Obviously, you’re not gonna use people’s names, but managers that you thought were a bit toxic or, like, a really terrible manager.

Jude Sclater [00:26:46]:

Oh, so I once had a manager who told me I killed creativity in meetings.

Aoife O’Brien [00:26:55]:

Oh, yeah. That’s my feedback.

Jude Sclater [00:26:58]:

Yeah. And looking back, it was quite funny because when I was at Deloitte and of course I was doing all this training and I’d trained to be a coach and things. And looking back, I realized that what she meant was I have very much a tendency in meetings that, when we’re sort of coming up with ideas because I’m quite a practical, pragmatic person, the first thoughts I always have are the reasons why it won’t work. Yeah.

Aoife O’Brien [00:27:29]:

But if you can I’m the same devil. I I like to call that devil’s advocate. Yeah. Here’s why that won’t work.

Jude Sclater [00:27:34]:

Yeah. Exactly. And and if we can keep going with it for a bit, I will then once I’ve got all those out of the way, I will then go right let’s find the ways that we can make it work. But you know at the time I was working in a in a very creative place and so bringing that in right at the beginning that I think that was quite tough for some of the people around me. But that piece of feedback really hurt but also I wasn’t actually given really any explanation of what that means.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:04]:

Yeah. What’s what’s in the best information? How how are they supposed to improve?

Jude Sclater [00:28:08]:

Yeah. And so it wasn’t until it was probably actually I think what happened was as I was doing some training and I brought it up as an example and in the moment of bringing it up as an example and talking about it I realized what she meant And I was just like, oh, yes. I was killing creativity in meetings and now I know why. And so then it it helped me to tune into this. Okay. I have a tendency to go to the negative first. So, what I need to do when someone comes to me is instead of saying no that’s not going to work because I would go, yes, let’s think of the reasons why that might work. Right? And and just kind of change my thinking around.

Jude Sclater [00:28:48]:

But I I think it’s, you know, I’m guessing what happened, and this is a manager who I’d previously had a really good relationship with and I’m not entirely sure what happened towards the end of us working together, but it it really sort of went downhill. But, you know, if I was to hazard a guess, I know we’d just gone through a redundancy process. You know, there was a lot of pressure on the team around some of the projects and things that we were we were running and I think it was it was probably sort of a frustration that just popped out and it didn’t necessarily have anything massively to do with me but I think that’s something just to be aware of as a manager is that sometimes the way you’re feeling is going to leak out and and that’s not necessarily your fault. Something I learned from Professor Steve Peters and and the Chimp paradox. Those those moments are not your fault when when that stuff leaks out, but it is your responsibility to do something about that. And I think had she come to me and said look. I’m sorry I said it that way. Let’s talk through it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:48]:

Mhmm.

Jude Sclater [00:29:49]:

Then it probably wouldn’t have stuck with me as as kind of a thorn in my side for, you know, the next few years.

Aoife O’Brien [00:29:56]:

Yeah. And and, like, that thorn in your side probably had a lasting impact on you. But if we come back and, like, upon reflection, how do you think she could have handled that situation better? Like, using it this coaching approach that you now know about, what do you think she could have done instead?

Jude Sclater [00:30:14]:

So, you know, in some ways, that first bit, you’re killing creativity in meetings, that’s a little bit like Kim Scott’s Radical Candour. So I think that would that was a nice little I mean, it wasn’t nice, but that would have got through to me.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:27]:

Yeah.

Jude Sclater [00:30:28]:

If the next step had been, you know, tell me what you think’s going on or let’s have a talk about how we can change your approach. So you know, and it might have it might have been even just to soften that first bit. You know, there’s a perception that you kill creativity in meetings. Let’s talk about where that perception is coming from. What are you doing in those meetings? What could you do differently? Right and really just opening opening that up. In my head what I remember is that it was quite a judgmental accusatory phrase that was said to me, and it really hurt. But I can imagine that phrase being said in a way, and I’m just thinking of Kim Scott in my head here and and some of the the conversations that she talks about that that she used to have, people used to have with her. I can imagine it being said in a way that’s sort of like, I need to I need you to know that this is serious.

Jude Sclater [00:31:28]:

So,

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:29]:

you

Jude Sclater [00:31:29]:

know, you are killing creativity in meetings, but let’s talk about that. And then going through it and and that’s, I think that’s the difficult thing as a manager is sometimes you do have to share the difficult message and it is hard to hear, but it’s it’s meaner not to share those messages.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:49]:

Yeah.

Jude Sclater [00:31:51]:

But if you are gonna share those messages, and this is something I always say about feedback, it is only information. You can’t force someone to act on it but if you are going to give it you are responsible for helping that person do something about it. Don’t just give feedback and walk away. There’s no point, right? Because why are you giving that feedback? There’s no is there no benefit to you? Is there no benefit to the other person? So if you’re gonna give that feedback and that’s I think what probably should have happened in this situation the feedback was given but there was no support to do anything about it and in fact I was probably quite confused about what that was because I thought that I was, I don’t know if I not necessarily I didn’t think I was killing creativity. I thought I was helping because I’m saying these are the reasons why things aren’t going to work so let’s leave those to the side so we can work it out. Right?

Aoife O’Brien [00:32:41]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. These are all the things that won’t work, so let’s move on to the things

Jude Sclater [00:32:45]:

that Exactly.

Aoife O’Brien [00:32:46]:

Exactly. And I can totally relate to that, but I’m I’m understanding that there are other people who prefer to just get all of the ideas out there no matter how silly, you know, and that might breed creativity in other people. So there’s no such thing as a a stupid idea. Let’s keep coming up with ideas. Maybe there’s some that won’t work, but actually that will spring someone’s mind into something that that actually will work. Absolutely. I’m I’m kind of getting a lot of reminders or what’s popping up into my head is, I had someone on the podcast a couple of times actually, Ariel O’Farrell, and she has 2 books that we spoke about on the podcast kind of separately, but one of the books is The Manager’s Dilemma. And I think it ties in with a lot of what you’re talking about, Jude, this idea that managers got to where they got to because they solved problems.

Aoife O’Brien [00:33:39]:

And so that’s how they know to progress. But actually, oftentimes, by solving other people’s problems for them, you’re holding them back and you’re holding yourself back. So it kind of ties in with a lot of what you’re saying that, actually, if you coach someone instead of jumping in to solve their problem, the perception is that it will take a longer time, and maybe it does take a longer time upfront and very, you know, very much in agreement with what you said, that there’s times for coaching and there’s times that you just have to tell someone, this is what needs to be done. You know, but with the recognition that coaching over the longer term is gonna help you in your career as a manager, and it’s gonna help your team as well to progress.

Jude Sclater [00:34:25]:

Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, there’s a one of my client I just made me think of one of, the people that I I used to coach, and, he had this realisation one day he’s just like I’ve spent my whole career being the one with the answers and that and I was so determined to get promoted into this manager position and so I made sure I was the one with all the answers And then he said, I’ve got to manager and I’ve realized actually my job is to make sure my team has all of the answers. And that’s for him where he saw the real benefit in the coaching was, you know, getting them to the point where they have all the answers. That’s now what his job is.

Aoife O’Brien [00:35:09]:

Yeah.

Jude Sclater [00:35:10]:

And I always like to think of it as a there’s actually, I don’t know how well known this book is, but it’s by Marilee Adams and it’s called Change Your Questions, Change Your Life.

Aoife O’Brien [00:35:20]:

I recognize the name of the book, but I don’t necessarily recognize her name. Yeah. I

Jude Sclater [00:35:25]:

can’t make a note of that. It’s a it’s a a kind of a leadership fable style book, but it’s just

Aoife O’Brien [00:35:31]:

that She loved those kinds of books. They’re so easy to read, I think. Exactly. There’s so many lessons.

Jude Sclater [00:35:37]:

Oh, exactly. Exactly. And, you know, this follows the story of a a man who is very senior in an organisation, but things aren’t going well and he’s almost about to quit, so they send him to a sort of a coach. And it’s coming to that realisation that when you’re asking questions more often than always coming up with the answers that’s when you have more impact And especially as a leader as well, so that it’s not actually about always having the right answer, it’s actually more about what’s the right question here. Yeah and even even there, there’s no judgment around that right because it’s you know there’s lots of different questions you can be asking, and you can keep trying right because if you give an answer and it’s wrong then you’re in a bit of a sticky situation. If you ask a question and it’s not quite getting the answer that you’re sort of you know, getting a quality answer, you’ve got another opportunity. You just ask another question. And there’s a lot more experimentation there.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:40]:

And I

Jude Sclater [00:36:40]:

think actually that’s the other thing where coaching is really useful for managers because now you don’t have to be the person that has all of the answers. The pressure’s not on you for all of that. What you need to be is the one that knows how to ask your team questions so that they’re working it out for themselves.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:59]:

Yeah.

Jude Sclater [00:36:59]:

And with questions there’s so many opportunities because if you ask a question and it falls a little flat, it’s fine. You just ask them. You know there’s another question in there or there’s there’s something else that that you can ask. Whereas with solutions, if you give someone a solution and it doesn’t quite work, well, they’re gonna come back to you.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:16]:

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. There like, there’s so much coming up there, Jude, with what you’re saying. And for me, the fundamental thing is that it’s a different skill set to be a manager, and it sounds like this person had his whole identity wrapped up in being the one who had all the answers. So his kind of identity is I can answer questions. I can solve problems, whatever it might be.

Aoife O’Brien [00:37:39]:

But it’s great that he’s learned that there is another way. But the the different skill set that’s required at management level and when you’re actually a people manager and how it’s how it’s so different than the individual contributor, and I love this idea that it’s about the right questions. If I think back to one of the worst managers that I ever had and I I won’t go into too much detail about why he was the worst manager, but one of the things one of my expectations of him, and maybe we can talk about this, was that he would have technical know how because he came from a different organization, and he was put into a management level. I don’t think he had ever managed people before. If I’m honest, I don’t know that for a fact, but I suspect he had never managed anyone before. He wasn’t familiar with our systems or anything like that. So for me, what I really wanted was someone to go to that I can ask questions to, like, from a technical nature, from a dealing with clients, from a, you know, how do I solve this problem? And if I think back on his approach to me, he could have, let’s say, earned himself a lot more favor by asking me questions and helping me to solve my own problems or asking me questions so that I would go and seek out those solutions from from a technical person who might know the answer rather than the expectation being he’s a terrible manager because he’s new to the business and he has no idea what we do on a day to day basis, which I think, you know, this might be the case for a lot of people that they think, oh, my manager knows nothing because they came from an external company. And as we progress through the ranks, we kind of expect that the people at those higher levels have been working in the organization for a long time.

Aoife O’Brien [00:39:21]:

Can we unpack that a little bit, that kind of manager person relationship, the expectations between the two, and the opportunity that we have to use more of this kind of approach to move away from that thinking.

Jude Sclater [00:39:35]:

Yeah. So many things have popped up into my head. Just an example of someone I coached a couple of years ago, and, she got promoted to manager in her team. So technically she knew exactly everything her team did, but there was a reshuffle when another team, came under her as well. So she’s managing these 2 teams and the second team she didn’t know anything about what they did. And actually that’s the team she found easier to coach and she she felt that was the one she was the better manager for. She said because I can’t help them with their technical problems. I I don’t have any I don’t know.

Jude Sclater [00:40:12]:

They know I don’t know. So all I can do is keep asking them questions, getting them to think about things in different ways to work out where they might go and find the answer. She said the problem with the team that she had been promoted within was she did know how to do all of those tasks and so she kept in her words meddling. You know, she just jump in and do this and jump in and do that and you know when we train as coaches, you know, I think one of the things that becomes clear quite quickly is that I don’t need to have any expertise in your job and what you’re doing or anything like that because you have that expertise. You’re the expert in your life. What I’m the expert in is holding this coaching space, this thinking space, getting you to look at things in different ways, getting you to, you know, think of alternatives and other options and all of those kinds of things. And again, this is probably another reason where having those coaching skills as a manager can be really, really useful because instead of thinking well I’ve got to step in and know the answers to all of these things, you don’t need to know the answers. Right? You can guide your team members to find the answers themselves or to find the people they need to go to to get, those answers.

Jude Sclater [00:41:25]:

But I think, you know, just one other extra bit in there. You’ve said a couple of times and I completely agree that that promotion, that step into managing other people, it’s a whole new set of skills. You know, it’s different from being an individual contributor and it sort of blows my mind that so many organizations don’t offer any training to their new managers. I think it was at the Chartered Management Institute put out a study, I think it was last year, saying that 82 percent of new managers get very little manager training. It’s not much better at some of the senior levels either and I think organisations really underestimate the impact of that level of of people because you know I think as a Gallup also say that you know in their research and they do a global state of the workforce survey every year, that 70% of employee engagement is based on the actions of the manager. They have 70% influence over that and yet nobody gives or not nobody but they get very little training in how to actually manage people because yes I can do the job sure that’s not a problem. Can I manage other people doing the job? That’s it that’s a little different and then actually then there’s another step right which is then when you become a manager of other managers.

Aoife O’Brien [00:42:49]:

Yeah.

Jude Sclater [00:42:49]:

And your job role changes but especially for new managers you get really stuck for a bit because sometimes you are still doing a bit of your individual contributor role as well as managing and nobody really teaches you how do you start to make that transition away from that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:43:05]:

Yeah.

Jude Sclater [00:43:06]:

And that’s something that I see new managers struggling with so much. And again, another place where, you know, using some of these coaching techniques can be quite helpful because it will enable you to get to know your team members, to know their motivations and their capabilities and their strengths and their weaknesses. It’ll help you get to know those so much more so that when you’re thinking about what you might delegate to someone the the decision becomes a little easier because now you know, oh, this is something I know they’re gonna really love doing or I know this person needs a bit of a stretch just to keep them motivated. I’m going to give them this this kind of thing. And and you know most of them I’d say a good percentage of management dilemmas come down to what’s the conversation you’re having with your team member.

Aoife O’Brien [00:43:51]:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I mean yeah. I’d like you’re so right. And I think the place that a few places that I’ve worked, I have had that training, and then there’s a couple where I know that they didn’t provide training. I know the people who are managing me have never had any kind of formalized training.

Aoife O’Brien [00:44:13]:

And not the thing the other thing is, I think, to mention here that not everyone wants to be a manager. I think we we see this as a glorified, like, oh, this is a new title. This is a promotion. Other people will recognize me as someone who’s a really strong contributor, etcetera, etcetera. But actually, the day to day role of being a manager is is hard. And I think building on your point of sometimes it’s hard to let go of that individual contributor, but oftentimes, managers will have their own role that they need to do on top of the managing of people, which takes an awful long time if you’re having one to ones with people, if you’re doing all the admin around it, you know, all of that kind of thing. But they also it might not be the same level as the individual contributors, but, certainly, that next level up, they’re gonna have some sort of projects that they’re gonna be working on as well. And it’s trying to balance out the time for everything.

Aoife O’Brien [00:45:09]:

I know a lot of my a lot of my clients, they really struggle with that.

Jude Sclater [00:45:15]:

Yeah. Absolutely. It you know, I I heard somewhere that that step into people management is a career change and I think it really is. And there’s always gonna be things that, you know, there’s very few people that are just managing others and that’s their only job. You know often they will be involved like you’re saying in other projects. They’re probably getting involved in more strategic initiatives. There will be things that they’re involved in that that only they can be doing because of confidentiality. So many

Aoife O’Brien [00:45:57]:

I think that’s a really

Jude Sclater [00:45:57]:

good question. I think what

Aoife O’Brien [00:45:58]:

would have made them even better is that we’re going to

Jude Sclater [00:45:58]:

be able to get those steps. And I think they were really good. I think what would have made them even better and something that I’m, learning a lot more about and trying to implement more myself as a trainer is what are sort of more of those regular touch points that people are having? Because the thing I often see a sort of a common mistake I often see people make with their networks is they’re so busy forming those senior level networks that they forget about their peers and actually building that strong peer network is so important because as a manager, you know, you want other managers that you can go and talk to and say hey this is this is going on with me at the moment, you know, can I just talk it through with you? And and to help each other with some of those things. And I think, you know, I see it and you you’ll probably see this too, Ephraim, is when you bring a group of people together and you get them to talk about what’s their big challenge at the moment, there’s like a collective sigh of relief from everyone in the room going oh it’s not just me and it definitely isn’t just you. So you know building those peer networks so that you’ve got other people that you can talk to and consult with is so helpful to people at all levels within an organisation and it’s definitely a technique that I would say, technique, I don’t know if it’s technique, but it’s definitely an action that that I would encourage. Because also you know that network they will move on to to other places. So it also opens up lots of opportunities for you and your career as you’re progressing, whichever direction you might go to, and just for the support because I think sometimes, you know, being a manager sometimes might feel a little lonely because all these things you’ve got to deal with, you might be able to talk about those with your manager, but as we all know, you know, depending on the relationship with your manager, depending on that psychological safety, you depending on that psychological safety, you might not be able to share everything. Mhmm.

Jude Sclater [00:47:55]:

Yeah. So true. Jude, we’ve covered a lot of ground. Is there

Aoife O’Brien [00:47:59]:

anything that that you feel like we should talk about that we haven’t necessarily covered?

Jude Sclater [00:48:08]:

This has been so much fun, Ethan. I oh, do I think there’s anything, else? Nothing is springing to mind because we’ve covered so many things. I mean, I think the, the the big thing for me is that nobody sets out to be a bad manager. So I don’t think bad managers are bad people. I think that circumstance kind of pushes them down that road whether that’s lack of role models or lack of training, lack of support, all of these kinds of things and actually just something I’ve been writing recently just sometimes taking that moment to do some reflection and I think reflection is highly underrated and it doesn’t need to be, you know, taking days or hours or anything like that but you know there’s we don’t just learn by doing, we learn by reflecting on what we’ve done and then working out what we’re going to do as a result of that. So even if all you did was say you know once a week you looked back over your week and said what went well this week? What am I happy with? And then what would I like to do differently next week? And you’re thinking about that as yourself as a as a manager or as an individual contributor as anybody really, and just, you know, taking 2 or 3 minutes just to check-in with yourself, I think can have a make an absolutely huge difference.

Aoife O’Brien [00:49:46]:

And that’s something I talk about a lot, but I’m probably not brilliant at actually implementing and doing it myself. So in this case, it’s definitely do what I say as opposed to do what I do, but I am getting better at at doing that. For me, I get hung up on I need this tool. I need this specific notebook. You know, I get all all the excuses, and then you get that thing and you’re like, I’m still not doing it, so that’s not what’s holding me back at all. So just Yeah. If you’re doing the same thing, know that you’re not alone. So, yeah, I do that too.

Jude Sclater [00:50:18]:

Yeah. I also find it so hard. One of the things I always suggest is, try and stack it with something else that you’re already doing. So, for me, I like to do a little bit of reflection after each, coaching session. I do so I have, 15 minutes booked out after each coaching session, and that’s when I finish up my notes. I’ve got a 6 minute reflection that I do and then I I’m done. But but yeah if that’s not actually in there then I keep missing it. So I I definitely feel the pain on trying to keep the habit, but once you’re in it and you feel how great it is and how much you’re you’re developing and what you’re learning, then you’re most kind of excited, to do it.

Jude Sclater [00:51:04]:

Yeah. But it’s just one of those things. Life just gets in the way so often.

Aoife O’Brien [00:51:07]:

Yes. Due to the question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Jude Sclater [00:51:14]:

So, for me, it’s about creating those moments, for other people or creating the conditions that they can have those moments and that’s that moment when you become sort of really clear about what it is that you need to do next and you know exactly what it is that you’re going to do. It’s something that fills me with a lot of joy. It’s something that I really, I love seeing it. It’s really buzzy. So for me, being happier is is being able to create those moments, for other people.

Aoife O’Brien [00:51:50]:

Brilliant. And if people want to connect with you, if they wanna find find out more about you, what you do, if they want to buy your book, tell us all the places that that they can what’s a bit well, sorry. What’s the best way that they can do that?

Jude Sclater [00:52:03]:

So I’m most active on LinkedIn, so that’s probably the best place to to come and find me. And then, the book, Think Like a Coach, it’s available on Amazon and on all other, good booksellers as well. If you go to my website, think with jude.com, there’s a list of international sellers in there that you can find.

Aoife O’Brien [00:52:24]:

Brilliant. Thank you so much. I so enjoyed this conversation. I think we could have talked for quite a bit longer all about managers, good managers, bad managers, manager as coach. So absolutely love this conversation. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Jude Sclater [00:52:37]:

Thanks so much for hearing me, Aoife. I’ve had so much fun.