270: Difficult Conversations at Work with Psychologist Sarah Rozenthuler

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:00]:

As leaders, we often have to have conversations maybe that we’d rather not have difficult conversations for one reason or another. Maybe we don’t feel confident. Maybe the there’s bad news. The good news today is that joining me on the Happier Work Podcast, the Career and Culture Podcast for People First Leaders is Sarah Rosen Tooler.

We talk all things, difficult conversations, how to have them, how to strategise, how to maintain relationships while having those difficult conversations. I’m your host, Aoife O’Brien. I’m the career and culture strategist for commercial leaders and teams, and I would love to know what you think and what’s one thing you’re gonna do differently.

After listening to today’s podcast episode, get involved in the conversation over on LinkedIn, or feel free to reach out to me directly.

Aoife O’Brien [00:00:49]:

Sarah, you’re so welcome to the Happier at Work podcast. I’m so thrilled to have this conversation with you today. Do you want to let me know and let listeners know a little bit about your background and what brought you on the journey to where you are today? Sure.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:00:16]:

What a great big open question to start with. So professionally, I’m a psychologist by background, did a psychology degree, specialized in organizational psychology and really went for. Yeah, I just felt attracted to working in organizations and I was taught psychology quite scientifically, so asking what’s the evidence and and so on. So I can be a bit geeky about psychology sometimes and I like to go and read the evidence base and so on. And then I followed that threat. Well, I had a few twists and turns along the way, including some years as a street circus performer. We could always lean back to that.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:01:17]:

But I then certainly from my late 20s after graduating, after living in Spain for a few years, really followed the thread of becoming a chartered psychologist, working in large organizations and then going into consulting work that has really crystallized into leadership development work with a particular emphasis on authentic leadership, how to strengthen communication, how to find work that’s really fulfilling, fulfilling and purposeful for you. So that’s a sense of the professional and on a more personal level, I was born into a family, so I’m one of four siblings. I’m second out of four. So I identify quite a lot as a middle child. And they often apparently make, or I was going to say make good facilitators, mediators, or step into that role because you’re used to dealing with not only parents but, you know, big, big sister, in my case, younger brother and sister, lots of love in the family. I think I was very fortunate. But also there were bubbling away under the surface some tensions.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:02:39]:

And once in a while a grown up would sort of, you know, get quite angry, not very often, but because the rest of the time things were quite easygoing and harmonious. I felt quite shaken by all of that as a child. And this is relevant, I think, to the topic we’re going to come on and talk about because I think I’ve had a curiosity going right back to my very young years about how people can talk and interact together and really say the things that need to be said, said without rupturing or going into really quite difficult places because things haven’t been talked about. And I can really trace that Back to my very early days. So that. That’s the sense of me.

Aoife O’Brien [00:03:33]:

Brilliant. Thank you for that, Sarah. And I think we’ll come back to that very particular thing in a second. But I would love to come back to this idea first of fulfillment at work. And I love that you’re so evidence based. You’re like, show me the evidence. Where’s. Where’s the proof of this? What was the hypothesis? What are we actually trying to find out here? What are we trying to prove? What have you seen that really drives people’s sense of fulfillment at work?

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:04:00]:

Oh, a number of things, I would say. But if I try and condense it into a few key points, I think self expression plays a big part. That sense of. That I can bring some of my creative spark to work. I know some of my most fulfilling moments, and I see this in coaches as well and clients, is when I find myself doing something and I’ve got that sense of this is really me. It’s. I just feel I can be myself and I can bring my quirky bits as well as my very socially acceptable bits. And so self expression is one part.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:04:48]:

I think fulfilment at work also comes from, let’s call it stretch. But feeling that you’re growing and learning, whatever that means to you, you’re not. You’re evolving in some way through what you’re doing. So there’s stretch. And the third thing I’m going to add, it’s another S would be significance. So a sense. And again, this is so subjective and it’s so personal to an individual. But if we’ve got a sense that what we’re doing is meaningful, making a difference, having a positive impact, it doesn’t have to be a huge thing, then I think that really helps put a spring in people’s steps at work.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:05:36]:

It certainly does with me.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:38]:

Yeah, No, I love that. I love how you’ve summarized those three things. I love how they all begin with S, by the way, as well. Like, I don’t know, was that intentional or is this like on the spot? No, they all begin with S. But just to. To reflect on the. On those. You were saying about self expression to me, you know, you mentioned the word creativity and you were saying it’s like being your full self to me.

Aoife O’Brien [00:05:59]:

What I heard from that as well is a sense of authenticity that I can show my. My kind of weird bits and all. And anyone who’s been listening to the podcast for a while knows I’m a bit of a Simpsons nerd. And when I can bring that kind of humor into the workplace. I love it. And when people get my jokes, or at least they appreciate them, they maybe not they don’t relate to the episode, but they appreciate that I’ve made a connection somewhere.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:06:23]:

Yes.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:23]:

That’s where I definitely come fully alive. You’ve mentioned about Stretch, which I’ve jotted down saying it’s about learning and challenge. So.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:06:33]:

Yep.

Aoife O’Brien [00:06:34]:

That you have the opportunity in the workplace to actually learn something new. And I know certainly for me, I’ve been in situations where I felt I wasn’t really learning and I went external to the company to do a separate program so that I felt like I was learning something, you know, and like that was something. An internal drive that I had. And then this sense of challenge, it ties in well with my happier at work framework where it’s not just about doing your job or showing up and ticking the box. It’s about feeling like you’re actually challenged at work and you’re learning and you’re working on something that’s kind of hard, that it’s not too easy for you, but you have the opportunity to really get into the. To the meaty things. Even if it’s hard. And it might feel hard in the moment, but actually it’s stretching you in a really positive way.

Aoife O’Brien [00:07:30]:

And then the last one about significance. And I have spoken about that on the podcast before with one of my previous guests, Zach Mercurio. This idea of meaning and impact, we are meaning making machines and again, being able to articulate as a leader the impact that each of the individuals contributes on your team gives them such a great sense of fulfillment at work. And like, this is how I’m contributing. This is what the work that I do means and this is why it matters.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:08:04]:

Yeah. It’s so valuable to have that and it’s so valuable to have it in a day to day sense. And I think in one of your previous episodes as well, you made this lovely distinction about whether it’s purpose with a capital P or purpose with a small P. Yeah. And I think you did a great job in that conversation of debunking one of the myths around person that we have to be saving the rainforest or doing brain surgery in order to feel a sense of purpose at work. I think it’s really possible to feel that work is meaningful and therefore energizing. Even if you’re working in a call centre. You know, even if, you know, if you.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:08:54]:

And if you can, as you were saying in that conversation, connect the dots between your daily role, maybe you’re in accounts payable or procurement. And it’s harder to draw the line between your role and then the stated purpose of the organization or the team. But to the extent you’re able to do that, that will bring a sense of fulfilment at work and that is really, really valuable.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:21]:

And that’s how we connected originally, Sarah, through the Purpose Collective. You ran the Purpose Connected. I don’t even, I want to say it was about five years ago. Would that be.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:09:30]:

That would be about right. It was very much during the start of the pandemic.

Aoife O’Brien [00:09:34]:

Yeah. So it would have been. Yeah, it’s a scary thought now to think that that was five years ago. I mean, to me it feels like it could have been a year ago as well at the same time. But I love this concept. I’d love to come back now to what you had mentioned specifically in your personal life about knowing what I heard was knowing how to manage relationships, knowing what to say without rupturing that strong relationship that you have with someone. And I think it’s so difficult to tread that fine line, especially in the workplace. So how do you see the relationship between maybe what you saw there, what you’ve learned over time, and how to apply that then those learnings to the relationships that we have every day with people and whether that’s having difficult conversations or check ins or like, how does that actually show up for us? Like, what are, you know, I’ll give you free reign with where to begin with this because it is, it’s a huge question.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:10:34]:

Yes, it’s a great question. And it is such a delicate balance as you’re pointing to. And one of the things that popped into my head as you were speaking there, and it’s a line, it’s not originally mine, but it’s written in the forward to my first book. So the first book’s now called how to have meaningful conversations. And Neil Donald Walsh wrote the forward and he’s a tremendous author. He’s one of only six authors ever to have had six titles on the New York Times bestselling list. Anyway, he’s immense and I’ve studied with him and he’s been something of a mentor to me. Anyway, in the in, in the forward he wrote speak your truth, but soothe your words with peace as a way of sort of trying to capture that, that, that challenge really of how you stay true to you.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:11:41]:

You might be speaking out some tricky things that you might make you uncomfortable, you might have a strong sense they’re going to make the other person uncomfortable. And yet you do so in a way, you do so in a tone of voice. You find words where it will soothe your words with peace, where tonally, you, you’re doing your utmost to transmit respect for the other person, some empathy for the other person to the extent that we’re able to do that. And of course, none of us can ever really fully stand in another person’s shoes. All we can do is our best at feeling into how this message might land. And the other piece I’m just going to quickly add to this, because this is something I’ve really had to learn myself over the years, is a reminder that ultimately I am only responsible for the message I’m giving. I am not responsible for the other person’s reaction to what I’m saying. So I really, as they sometimes say, look towards keeping my own side of the street clean.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:13:03]:

I. And so for a difficult conversation, I’m big on preparing for that and I do a lot of that in my coaching work and, and so on. And there’s that reminder I’m not responsible for the other person ultimately. And of course, the other thing that I’ve really learned is the preparation is only half the story because as important as that, if not more so, is our presence and just being fully here in the moment, as I am intending to be. Hopefully I am with you right now because as we all know, in conversations the unexpected comes in, you get a curveball. You might have practiced saying, you know, your line at the very heart of the conversation. And yet, you know, our biggest resource isn’t actually our preparation.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:14:11]:

It’s being fully here and available to.

Aoife O’Brien [00:14:15]:

Talk and dare I say, Sarah, not getting hijacked by our emotions. If we’re in one of those high stakes conversations that, that we can remain calm, that we’re not, you know, and I, I know I’ve certainly been on both the giving and the receiving end of those and experienced the emotional hijacking where you kind of forget what, what was it that I was going to say, no matter how much preparation you did, but being able to, I don’t want to say control them, but just be aware that, that your emotions are there and like you say, stay present rather than, than kind of going off on, on a little bit of a, oh, no, what do I do now? And I’m now totally stuck. I’d love to know, in your experience, what are some of the biggest mistakes that people make when it comes to this stuff.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:15:05]:

Oh, God. Well, not preparing. So having to then maybe do lots of mopping up after a conversation that derails. I’m going to go back to what you were saying there about the emotional hijack.

Aoife O’Brien [00:15:21]:

Yeah.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:15:21]:

As well. And just a lack of awareness or a lack of understanding about that can lead to some real botches in communication. And. And there’s some good news here as well. And I think the good news is that it is actually possible. And I’m sure you and many listeners will be familiar with this principle of name it, to tame it around difficult emotions. But if I actually, I’m sitting there, I get thrown a curveball. I’ve got a sense that the stakes have suddenly shot up, so my heart is racing or my mouth has gone dry or my palms have gone really clammy and that actually, even with those physiological reactions, if we name.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:16:15]:

Oh, I am really starting to feel anxious now. Or I’m feeling super nervous. Like that in and of itself can just help reduce the volume a bit and other simple things really help. So I know for myself when my. I go shaky in my chest when I get nervous. So I just get this awful shaking feeling inside. And I’ve learned that actually if I just change my posture, uncross my legs, sit up a little straighter, take a deeper breath and use my physicality to manage my emotionality, just that sometimes has helped me. Me stay in the conversation rather than.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:17:08]:

And my younger self has burst into tears. Yeah. And had to. I remember with one. In one situation and it wasn’t actually in the training room, it was over dinner in the evening when somebody really went for me and I didn’t know all this, it was many years ago and I burst into tears.

Aoife O’Brien [00:17:32]:

Were they giving feedback or what was the situation?

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:17:35]:

Oh, they were being a bit mean. Yeah. And maybe without going too much into the story, but I. We’d done half a day, a co facilitator and I, and we’d agreed that he would leave the afternoon of day one. I’d be more in observation mode and I lead the morning of day two. So I hadn’t done very much visibly on that afternoon and what this person said over dinner. But it was the tone of voice as much as what was said was. He said something like, well, you know, what are you here for? Is it.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:18:13]:

It’s two facilitators, but for the price of one, I hope. Like really what. But with a nasty tone of voice. Me look in his eyes and. And I. This might be too much information. But yeah, I was also premenstrual and just in that really kind of wobbly.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:37]:

Place that sometimes anything can set you off. I know I can absolutely relate to that and I’m sure a lot of listeners can as well.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:18:45]:

Yeah. And, you know, anyway did it. So I’ve learned a lot over the years. A lot through my own experience, a lot through coaching others, a lot through the writing processes as well.

Aoife O’Brien [00:18:57]:

Yeah.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:18:58]:

And small things can make such a big difference.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:01]:

Yeah. I mean, the impression I get from something like that is what business did he have saying that? What was he trying to achieve? And especially doing it in that way. So, you know, when it comes to having those kinds of conversations, you always have to think about the intention. I think that ties in with the idea of preparation. Like, what is the intention behind this? What is it that I want to share? Why do I want to share it? What outcome am I expecting? So I’m thinking like that person didn’t do any of this work or they didn’t really understand the impact that they were going to have on. On you by saying that. Probably because they said it, in a mean way.

Aoife O’Brien [00:19:44]:

Exactly like you said. Like, what was the purpose of that? Just to be mean.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:19:48]:

Yeah. And the board was going through a very unsettled time. I think cost was actually quite an. You know, and I suppose ultimately I’ll never really know what their intention was. I think unfortunately, sometimes people are mean because they’re really frustrated. And I think there’s a misguided notion.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:10]:

Yeah.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:20:10]:

That if I kind of vent that or dump that on somebody else, that’s going to make me feel better. But of course, it’s. Doesn’t really work like that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:20]:

No. No, not at all. No. And in fact, sometimes it makes us feel worse because we reflect on what we’ve done or we see the impact of what we’ve done and it doesn’t. Definitely doesn’t make us feel better. And yeah, maybe we don’t intentionally want to hurt other people. I think, you know. Yeah, it’s.

Aoife O’Brien [00:20:37]:

I think it’s. It’s really interesting because situations like that happen every day at work. And for me, I think it’s really important to understand with people. Maybe we can think about this from both the giving side and the receiving side. So maybe starting with the giving. So we talked about preparation, but what are those kind of high stakes conversations you think that people have? And why do. Here’s another thing. Why do we avoid them? Because I know I’ve been there, I’ve avoided those conversations.

Aoife O’Brien [00:21:11]:

I know I need to have this conversation. I do not want to have this conversation. And we just kind of sweep it under the brook.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:21:16]:

Yes. Well, I think classic challenging conversations would include things like telling somebody you’ve got to let them go, saying no, whether that’s to a request for a salary increase or something else. Advocating for oneself so asking for the pay rise or the perk or the promotion. Giving challenging feedback, particularly to a colleague who’s more senior. That would be difficult for many people. So I think there are some very. Yes. Scenarios that are very common that many.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:21:56]:

In my experience, many people would say, yep, that certainly a difficult conversation.

Aoife O’Brien [00:22:02]:

And.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:22:02]:

And then there can be ones that are maybe. I mean, somebody recently said to me that their difficult conversation was that they were going to have to have a chat with a team member who was using AI to write. It seemed like all their emails and the emails were coming across as being very robotic, and that was the difficult conversation for that person. So it can really vary person to person. And avoidance is so common. And I know I’ve avoided difficult conversations myself, but in my personal life and my professional life and what the research tells us is about 70% of managers and leaders can really identify with that. Of what I. I’ve come to call it the avoidance syndrome.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:22:58]:

And, yeah, I think there’s lots of fear underneath that avoidance. So we don’t want to upset the other person. We don’t want to damage a relationship. And common to this, I think, is actually a fear of difficult emotions. And that’s one of the key insights I took from the classic book Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone and colleagues at the Harvard Negotiation Project. They sort of say, strip everything back. And difficult conversations are difficult because there are difficult emotions in the room, the frustration, the disappointment, the jealousy, the anger and so on. And I found that to be very accurate.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:23:48]:

So there’s a fear, whether it’s conscious or not, of what happens when the difficult emotions come out, whether they’re our own or the other person. And then how do we handle the person bursting into tears or having a meltdown or shouting and thumping their fist on the table? How do we handle that?

Aoife O’Brien [00:24:13]:

Yeah. Yeah. I ran a webinar a few weeks ago or a month ago now at this stage, all about delivering effective feedback. And I asked about participants about, like, what their struggles are with it. And every single person said that they soften the blow because they don’t want to upset the other person. I think we’re so concerned with not upsetting other people, but I love how you’ve brought it to the next Level, it’s not just about upsetting someone else. It’s our own fear of either our emotions getting out of hand or the emotions that are in the room, the other person and what’s going to happen there. So maybe can we explore that in a little bit more detail? Like how do we, if we have this fear and now we’re bringing this fear to light, how do we actually address it?

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:25:08]:

Yes, well, one of the things I found really helpful to understand here, and this is picking up on some psychology from years ago. So this is Karen Hornay’s model, I think she published in 1945, psychoanalyst about these different reactive tendencies. So three of them that it’s really helpful to understand. So if I just briefly speak, talk them through. Because understanding the notion of your own reactivity and then other people’s reactivity gives us a map. It gives us a way of understanding better what happens when these trigger points do occur in conversation or as you were saying, in feedback conversations as well. So some of us go into a people pleasing mode and we become quite compliant and we say yes when we really want to say no. And we lose our voice.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:26:15]:

We silence ourselves sometimes. So that’s the more compliant, reactive tendency. Another one is, if you like, the very opposite of that. Some people get more defiant, they get more controlling. This is where you might see the fist banging on the table, the raised voice, the blazing eyes, you know, a real heightened sense of emotion. And then there’s a third reactive tendency and what Karen Hornay found amongst children. So these develop early in our lives. There are ways of coping when we’re kids.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:26:57]:

They’re part of our survival strategy when we’re not getting the attention that we need from the grown up. So they’re a sort of call for help really. But if the people pleasing doesn’t work and the controlling doesn’t work, then what children will do is try a third strategy. And this is the one of distancing. So this is the silent treatment, the cold shoulder, the lack of response. And I sometimes think this is the trickiest one of all because in a way you don’t have anything to work with or not very much to work with. And probably we’ve all been on the receiving end of the silent treatment sometimes. But the silence kind of is giving us a very loud message.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:27:51]:

But that’s the other way in which people can be reactive rather than being responsive. And for me it’s made a real difference to understand that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:28:05]:

I think it’s great to have that framework. And to me, I’M looking at it and I’m thinking it sounds a lot like attachment theory as well. Like, I wonder, are the elements of it slightly related to attachment theory, like going silent or giving someone the silent treatment versus going into fawning and people pleasing mode versus getting really angry and reactive?

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:28:28]:

Yes, I think you could certainly make links between the people pleasing, maybe happening more in people with a more anxious attachment style. The silent treatment, the distancing would chime very much with the avoidance. So yes, I think you could definitely make links there. And of course, all of that, it’s so deeply wired in us, the attachment style, the reactivity, the reactive tendency, that it’s a big call to consciousness as a leader, as a manager, to sort of see that in ourselves, to maybe see it in other people, see it for what it is and therefore cut across the. The pattern that can be. If you’re being reactive, I’m just going to get defensive and reactive as well. Whereas we might come in with from a more centered and grounding place and ask, you know, what, what do you really need right now? Or what do we really need to talk about? Or I’ve noticed you’re having a strong reaction to what I’ve just said, so let’s just slow down here. So, you know, those responses become more available to us if we can just be in our seat and be more present.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:30:03]:

Even as I said earlier, you know, the heart is beating strongly and the palms have got a bit clammy.

Aoife O’Brien [00:30:11]:

Yeah, I love that. If I can just summarize what we talked about. The main reason that we avoid having these conversations, feedback or otherwise, there’s lots of different situations where these are high stakes and what’s high stakes for one person might not be high stakes for another person. It really just depends on your level of awkwardness that, you know, like, I really do not want to have this conversation. It’s mainly driven by fear. And the fear at a subconscious, or maybe sometimes at a conscious level is to do with difficult emotions. We all have reactive tendencies and if I understand correctly, it’s from both sides. So it, you know, it the person who you’re giving, if the person who’s on the receiving end, let’s say, of the conversation and a conversation for two people.

Aoife O’Brien [00:31:00]:

But, you know, you know what I mean? It’s not just them being reactive, it’s us and having that sense of awareness of our own reactions as well. And then when something’s happening in the room, actually naming it, I think that’s really the key. So don’t Avoid those conversations because you can break it down into a framework and there’s three types of reactions. Probably people would favor the silent treatment and the people pleasing over the banging on the table and the controlling type of reaction. But they all are difficult in their own ways and they’re not driving the relationship forward. But I love that we have a framework to think about it. If we’re thinking from a practical point of view. And for anyone who’s listening today, if they’re avoiding a conversation or if they have a conversation close coming up, what kind of things do you think they need to consider? So we have this kind of flow where we know what to expect in the room, we know why we’re avoiding it, and we have a framework to think about.

Aoife O’Brien [00:32:08]:

Well, there’s three reactive tendencies. So the person is going to react in one of three ways. It’s my job as a leader to actually have this conversation. So what do you think people need to consider when they’re going into to have that conversation?

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:32:26]:

Well, a useful bit of prep can be, and this is more around mindset shift than skill set and we can come on and talk about some practical skills as well is to do, I call it a trade off exercise. So you might just take five minutes for this, grab a piece of paper or your remarkable whatever it is and, and let’s keep it really simple. You’ve got two options. You either have the conversation or you stay silent. And for each of those two options, there are risks and there are benefits. And you map that out just a few bullet points in each of those four areas. And what often becomes apparent to people when they think it’s through in the round in that way is that they get to see. Because we’re often very fixated on the risks of having the conversation.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:33:27]:

But what we often fail to see or what the risks are of staying silent. And when we have a good look at that, we might say things like, well, the status quo is just going to remain or things might actually, actually get worse. The situation might actually fester if I don’t speak out. I might lose respect for myself if I keep on staying stuck in this situation. So unlocking your own willingness, your own courage can be a big part of this. And that very simple exercise can. I’ve seen it happen many times over the years, just help people to go, okay, I’m still kind of dreading it, but I’m now seeing the actually And I often think it ends up often being a few minutes of discomfort sometimes if that and those few minutes it Might even be a few moments of discomfort can be so worth the potential benefits and upside. And it might be that nothing actually changes on a tangible level.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:34:55]:

Maybe you don’t get the pay rise, you know, maybe you give the challenging feedback and your colleague is quite resistant and they don’t change their behavior. But on an intangible level, you might come away from that conversation, you know, with your self esteem, your self respect intact. And that is really valuable for us. So that’s. There’s a mindset shift that sometimes needs.

Aoife O’Brien [00:35:26]:

To take just knowing that you can do it. And like I had this conversation once, I can definitely have this conversation again. And you know, when I talk about things like imposter syndrome and when I talk about moving forward, it’s about taking courageous action, it’s having the courage. And those small wins, like that little small win means that the next time you go to have that conversation, you feel a little bit more confident or if it doesn’t go well, maybe you learn from that experience. And like, what do I need to do differently the next time? And Sarah, you mentioned about skill set as well. So is there anything else that you want to share on mindset or skill set?

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:36:07]:

Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking when you were speaking there, just back to stretch, because I really like the point you were making there, that actually that learning, that experience we can take forward with us into another challenging situation. You know, it sort of puts some fiber in our being when we are able to lean in and that stays with us. So I just really wanted to underline.

Aoife O’Brien [00:36:34]:

Your point, but I think like for me it was building on that idea of self respect. So I might lose self respect if I don’t speak up for myself or if I don’t have this conversation, if I avoid it. And I love how he describes like building up that fiber it’s having. These things are what makes us human, I think, is avoiding them and feeling really awkward and emotional about it. But what helps us grow is actually taking action anyway and doing it. And then we build our courage and we build our confidence as we have more of those conversations.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:37:10]:

Yes, absolutely. And I think on the skill side, I think there is something. I’ll just cover it briefly and then come on to other things as well. There is something about how you stay present and whether you have a mindfulness practice or a little way that you get some stillness inside yourself, whatever you’ve got in your toolkit is really going to resource you well in this territory. And I think that is a skill and it is a capacity that we can cultivate presence, groundedness. So there’s that I love. I’m currently doing a course myself with Meg Wheatley, the writer Leadership in the New Science. And she really underlines this notion of taking your seat.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:38:07]:

That’s her way of describing being present. And I think we super need to take our seat for these challenging conversations. Feet flat on the ground and so on. I think it can be really helpful and I’m sure many of your listeners will be familiar with active listening. You know the pat just as you’ve done and I’ve really appreciated it in our conversation where you’ve done the summarizing and you know, just sort of like, you know, this is what, what we’ve covered so far before you’ve then given your next question. So that is a superb example right here, right now of the active listening. And of course, you know, you know, people will not shift if you’re in a tight spot often until they feel they’ve been understood, heard, respected. And active listening is such a good tool.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:39:10]:

The summarizing, paraphrasing, reflecting that. So that’s a key skill set. I think there’s also something about authentic speaking and the language that we use. So I think it’s really helpful to find your opening what the very first thing you’ll speak, say will be. And you might even rehearse that out loud. Get your literally get your mouth around the words. And you might also think you might say to yourself what is really at the heart of the matter here? So I’m going to open it up by saying this and then there’ll be some backwards and forwards. What’s the thing I really need to keep communicate here.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:39:59]:

Yeah and to think through again how you are going to language that part of the conversation. And in my own mind I think of that as authentic speaking. And I’m just going to signal because I think it’s so good in the non violent communication body of work, Rosenberg’s work, he’s very, very good at making the distinction about when you’re, when any of it, you know, we go into more judgmental language or the language is more neutral or it’s really own. So I’m shifting from you statements you did the dirt to I and the impact on me. And just thinking through carefully how we express the key, the key key points is really helpful.

Aoife O’Brien [00:40:50]:

I, I love that idea of getting to the heart of the matter because I think that requires a little bit of preparation on our side. So there might be something that’s annoying you. And you’re like, okay, let’s dig a bit deeper. Why is that annoying me? Why is that bothering me so much? And dig a layer deeper and a layer deeper and keep going. And fundamentally, what. What is it about? And maybe it’s like, I feel disrespected because I asked you to do something and it wasn’t completed on time or whatever it might be, that’s. That’s going on for you. So, like, digging in to really understand that and the ability to.

Aoife O’Brien [00:41:28]:

Like, when you said about sharing authentically, I. What I thought was, you’re getting a message maybe from someone more senior and having to communicate that in your own way would have. Using their language. So finding a way to communicate that yourself as well. And I’ve been in that situation, and it was quite awkward because the feedback was coming from someone else, and I was the one who had to communicate it to the other person, which. Well, you know, we could argue that that shouldn’t have been the case, but it was the case in that situation. There was a couple of other things that occurred to me as you were talking as well, Sarah. And so again, some previous podcast episodes where we’ve talked about this.

Aoife O’Brien [00:42:09]:

Carla Miller talked about using the cloak of authority. So she kind of made up this term, if you like, you know, linking it back to Harry Potter and saying, your job as a leader is to be authoritative and to have these conversations. And so if you’re going into a room, you can still. Still have these conversations, even if you feel awkward, even if you feel nervous, you can step into the room, you can put on your cloak of authority. And how she described it was, Carla, the person is really nervous. Carla, the person wants to be really liked. Carla, the leader needs to have this conversation and is courageous. And, you know, and having this conversation.

Aoife O’Brien [00:42:53]:

And there’s. There was another one as well, Kelly Rae Thompson.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:42:57]:

She.

Aoife O’Brien [00:42:57]:

She talks about, I can feel this way and still do this thing. So just because you feel a certain way doesn’t mean that you can’t necessarily, at the same time, behave in a certain way or act in a certain way. I can feel really nervous, and I can still speak up or advocate for myself. I can feel like I’m not prepared and still put myself forward for this promotion, whatever it might be, but it doesn’t mean that we don’t take action just because we feel a certain way.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:43:32]:

Very good. I love both of those. Like, Carla is lead. Aoife, Sarah’s lead. Yeah, like, you know, I often, inside myself, I sometimes feel. Yeah, you know, Young Sarah, little Sarah, and just acknowledge. Yeah. The feeling of nervousness or the upset.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:43:50]:

But, you know, we are. There are many parts to us. There are many. And it’s very interesting to have ways of pivoting internally so that you inhabit and then express your self. Expression comes from, you know, big Carla or Carla is leader or. That’s really powerful to be able to access. Access that and. And to do it in the moment when the states are going up.

Aoife O’Brien [00:44:21]:

This is. This is it. Yeah. It’s an in the moment thing, isn’t it? It’s. And for me, it hinges on this idea of awareness, which I think we touched on earlier. Just being aware of the shifts and the changes, especially in your own body, what’s happening? My palms are sweaty. My heart is beating really fast. Okay, how can we name that? How can we.

Aoife O’Brien [00:44:40]:

Yes, move on past that. Sarah, you mentioned that there were a couple of other things that you wanted to talk about before we wrap things up.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:44:48]:

Yeah, I was thinking also of the value in these tricky interactions of also asking questions, not just asserting, giving opinions. And it’s something I do often, but not actually necessarily just before a difficult conversation. Before a conversation, and it might just be 30 seconds or a minute, and I just take a moment to tune in to that person, what’s in my memory bank, what happened last time we interacted. And again, coming from the heart, coming from a place of genuine curiosity, what can I ask them? So it’s not just. Just about me or. And certainly in the context of a difficult conversation, I think it’s good practice just to say, you know, what do I need to find out here? Because. And if I can just refer back to Rosenberg again for a moment in nonviolent communication, I think he’s also very, very good at pointing to that. Often in tricky situations, it.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:46:02]:

There’s unmet needs that are really running the show. And so I loved when you said a few moments ago about really digging in, you know, what am I really annoyed about? What do I really need here? And that question around the unmet need, whether it’s framed or not like that, I think is really helpful to ask oneself, what do I. I actually need some acknowledgement here, or I really need an apology. And then also to remind oneself that the other person or the other people at the COP might also have unmet needs. And how might I be able to draw that out, whether it’s through a question or some empathic response. So there’s something about the asking questions and final couple of quick thoughts. What do you say? If it all starts, starts to derail.

Aoife O’Brien [00:47:01]:

Me quickly.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:47:02]:

Yeah. What, you know, it’s, you know, whether it’s. I, I think we should press the pause button here and come back in 5 minutes, 10 minutes next, you know, when we’ve all had a chance just to gather ourselves. So there’s something about what’s the worst case scenario and what you have up your sleeve for that.

Aoife O’Brien [00:47:22]:

It’s, it’s really calling a spade a spade, isn’t it? Like, this is not working right now. Let’s address the elephant in the room. Let’s. I love that word. Let’s press pause on this right now and we’ll come back to it and then insert timeline, you know.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:47:37]:

Yes. Yeah. And I think there’s also something about just thinking through the scenario where again, you don’t get what you’ve asked for or you’re sensing you’re. And you’ve done your prep, you’ve stayed present, you’ve spoken about the heart of the matter, and still you’ve not landed in the place you wanted to. What you might say at the end of the conversation that might, for example, just keep the door to dialogue open. So it might, you know, can I pick this up with you again in a month’s time or. But just so you leave the conversation not feeling so stuck. And I think that is also worth thinking through offline, where hopefully your nervous system is, is, is more settled.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:48:29]:

It’s. You can really think it through.

Aoife O’Brien [00:48:32]:

Yeah, I think that’s, that’s such a nice way to put it because if you don’t get what you ask, where you kind of maybe see it quite binary, like, that’s a, it’s either a success or a failure. But if you leave the door open and you think, okay, so when can we revisit this? I would like to talk about this again. And I wish I had that language when I was in corporate situations and advocating for myself and asking for what I wanted and seeing it very much in those, like, black and white kind of terms, rather than thinking, okay, when can we look at this again and again? Going into the prep and learning from that first experience, how do I do things better the next time? And then in brackets, slightly, how do I get what I want at work, basically. Yeah, brilliant. I’ve loved this conversation, Sarah. Really, really practical, really insightful as well. Really loved the back and forth of it. The question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:49:35]:

Feeling that I can do, be myself as I am now. Quirks and all. And also that I’m kind of sensing into the next best version of me as well. Again, back to that sense of growth and stretch. And I think there’s also just something about feeling in good relationship with fellowship.

Aoife O’Brien [00:52:34]:

The question I ask everyone who comes on the podcast, what does being happier at work mean to you?

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:52:52]:

It means, I think it means being real, as in I can show up as who I am and I can feel that I’m in real relationship with other people. So we’re talking about what really matters. We are moving forward together. If there are things clogging the air, we can find our way through that. We’re not avoiding it, we’re not bypassing it. And what all of that then means is that we’re all kind of growing and evolving and moving forward in a very real way.

Aoife O’Brien [00:53:33]:

That’s brilliant.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:53:35]:

Love it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:53:35]:

And if people want to find out more about you, if they want to reach out to connect, what is the best way they can do that?

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:53:42]:

LinkedIn is probably the simplest way. So you’ll find me on LinkedIn. I’m active on LinkedIn. I have a website that’s my own name, probably LinkedIn.

Aoife O’Brien [00:53:53]:

Brilliant. And tell us about your books as well.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:53:56]:

Ah, thank you. So the latest one is called, called Now We’re Talking how to Discuss what really Matters. Very much. Written for business leaders, managers and organizations. The one before that, powered by purpose. Energize your people to do great work. So, yeah, how you make day to day work meaningful. That’s got a forward by Paul Polman, who was CEO of Unilever.

Aoife O’Brien [00:54:21]:

Wow.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:54:22]:

And then the first one which is more self help, more about our personal lives, family lives. It’s called how to have meaningful Conversations.

Aoife O’Brien [00:54:32]:

Brilliant. Love it. Thank you so much. I really, really enjoy this conversation today and looking forward to continuing the conversation as well. Thank you, Sarah.

Sarah Rozenthuler [00:54:41]:

Thank you, Aoife. Really enjoyed it.

Aoife O’Brien [00:54:14]:

That was Sarah Rozenthuler talking all things difficult conversations at work, and I would love to know what are you gonna do differently after listening to today’s episode? If you know someone else who could benefit from listening to the insights that are shared today, don’t forget to share it with them.

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